History, Patterns, and What 20-Year-Old You Would Think of Who You Are Now

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savan and today I've got my good friend, Andrew Merchant. Andrew, how are you?

Good. Good.

Fantastic. You look great, my friend. You look great. Alright Andrew, I want to get started with ⁓ a few simple easy preference questions. Okay, so choose one of these things and I'm hoping it'll give the audience ⁓ a little purview into your brain and how it works. You ready?

Yeah, go for it.

Okay, which do you prefer the morning or the evening?

Evening, for sure.

Okay. Routine or spontaneity?

Both?

Hahaha

I need routine, but I thrive off spontaneity. If that makes sense.

Okay, yeah, no, I love that. love that. ⁓ History or future?

History, 100%.

Why is that? It's interesting.

Because if you know your history, if you know history, can, I guess, predict or, I guess, see patterns and things on why people do the things that they do. And so you can, in a way, kind of predict the future. Because if you know how people are going to react to certain things, or if you know what history has said about certain topics or actions, then you can sort of manipulate how you look at the future. That's way I've always seen it. That's why I that's why I history degree. I love history.

Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. ⁓ we're gonna dive into that a little bit more, my friend. Alright, quiet or noise?

I it's very important. Control noise.

Okay, just like controlled chaos, I like that. ⁓ Stay in or go out?

Stay in, normally.

like 80 % of the time.

Yeah, sorry.

Okay. I wonder, you know, 20 year old Andrew, what do think he would have said?

I'll go out 100%. I was so starved for all the fun, especially growing up in the middle of nowhere, you know? So, yes, most definitely.

Hahaha Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. We will dive into that as well, so stay tuned. ⁓ Introvert or extrovert?

Introverted, extrovert. So it's, yeah, I very much, I use my wife to feed off socially. ⁓ She's much more of social butterfly. Whereas I like to, I guess, stay in until I'm comfortable with somebody and then they can see the full Andrew.

both at the same time. Yeah. Yeah, the full Andrew sort of scares me sometimes. All right, my friend, let's dive into some questions here. So what are some things, let's just say in the last like year, ⁓ what's made you like really laugh? Like, you know, just this guttural human animalistic laugh? What was that?

Hmm. Anything? I'll try it. I don't know, I can't think of anything right now. mean honestly, things that are real that I can relate to, like I love edgy humor. But yeah, anything that I can relate to and things that are directed at me. I love people, I love having fun at my expense and know what not. But yeah, it's, guess the cheap humor doesn't do it for me.

That's alright. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

I like to feel.

Yep, yep, yeah, I love that. I feel like a lot of that is missing right now in society where you've got maybe a little bit thicker skin and I'm sure if you talk to people that are of the younger generation, they might have a different opinion, but I find a lot of the humor that's directed at me to be funny as well, just because I think I'm a quirky guy and I've got like really... weird things that I like that people typically make fun of. But ⁓ yeah, I find that shit super funny too.

100% Yeah.

Alright Andrew, so tell me what it was like for you growing up ⁓ and I know we can't remember you know things when we were like two or three but talk to me about where you grew up, are some you know what are some things you remember ⁓ and ⁓ what are some and if you could be like precise about you know events or people or places like I think I think the audience would love to hear that.

Yeah. I guess growing up, I always thought my childhood was normal, which I guess the more I've done therapy and whatnot, I realized it's far from it. ⁓ so I, I'm one of four children, ⁓ born in 89 in, ⁓ Southern Alabama. My parents, I remember getting divorced when I was six. And I remember like when they were telling me about it, I, ⁓ I knew what divorce was because I watched Mrs. Doubtfire, like,

Yeah. Yeah.

15 times. So I'm like, oh, this is gonna be alright, you know? It's a Mrs. Doubtfire divorce. Far from it. So my mother ends up moving to Australia, of all fucking places. I don't know why. But yeah, so growing up without my mother was very...

I love that movie dude. Yeah. Wow.

I guess in retrospect, it was hard emotionally and relationally because it absolutely affected, I guess, how I received affection, how I received gratitudes and gifts, and then what I did to earn those things. ⁓ So that was a big, what I now know as like a big pivotal moment in my life, or I guess who I am, what may be that. ⁓ Growing up in Alabama was

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Boring. I grew up next to a farm. It's called the Lazy M Farm. On one side, and then on the other two sides, I had cow pasture of my house, and then we had woods. So was, my nearest neighbor was a half mile away. So I grew up outside with my siblings. So we would play in the woods and play in the cow pastures, just walk wherever you wanted to walk. It was a different time, you know? ⁓

Mm-hmm. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So yeah, it was very much a country upbringing, even though I despised living in the country, if that makes sense. I've always associated, yeah, I've always associated like Southern culture ⁓ with people who were unintelligent or ignorant about certain things. And it was always like an active fight for me or desire to ultimately leave Alabama and leave, you know, that Southern culture and...

No, it definitely does.

be who I wanted to be. Yeah, so it's after divorce, my father, we just, were really poor. ⁓ I remember we would go and there's like an ice cream. like tractor trailer almost. was, I remember we would go there and we would like get these like expired and or like dinged boxes of ice cream for mega cheap. one the earliest memories I have. was in the, I don't even know where it was. It somebody's yard in middle of nowhere in the woods. Like, I don't know how my parents found this thing. But things like that, you know, we made it get by and we made it, my father made it to where I didn't, I guess, know I was poor, you know?

Yeah. Great. Yeah.

I never felt like I

Yeah.

was, even though I never had a lot.

I think that's one of the superpowers of a great parent is, you know, they do the right amount of shielding. ⁓ I knew my parents struggled a ton as a kid too, but I... I never really felt it either. Right. And now that we're we're both parents ⁓ for the audience, we both have kids of our own. There's ⁓ there's a certain amount of resilience and a certain amount of like this. don't know what kind of superpower we get as we get kids, but to be able to shelter them from a lot of these things is really fucking hard. Right. Like, it's really hard to do and especially to do it well, well enough where your kids feel Safe with you and they feel comfortable and they feel like they're in a place where they can just you know Go outside and run the pasture or you know, do whatever you were doing right like ⁓ with the the cows out there, but ⁓ Andrew tell me a little bit about I want to go into You know you Being outside being in the woods and doing those types of things and playing. Did you have a lot of friends? When you were there

No, The nearest neighbors are about a half mile away and they were the same age as my older siblings. So my sister's five years older than me and my brother's four, four years older than me. So that was just enough of an age gap to where I guess I couldn't relate. I was more of the always tagging along kid and the annoying brother, whatnot. So I didn't get to participate much. was very much, I was playing with myself.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

in the woods and whatnot most of the time. It was very much a me alone thing in my head, making forts and building dams and shit. Just whatever I can do.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How did you sort of like, are you the youngest of your brothers and sisters?

On number three, I have a sister that's two years younger than me.

Okay, so you guys, the two of you didn't play in the forts that you made or anything like that growing up?

No, my sister was... I think when my parents divorced, it was at a much more pivotal time for her. And so she was, I think, much more adversely effective in retrospect or hindsight. She's also... The nicest way to say it is my youngest sister wasn't probably intellectually the same level I was. And so it always felt like it was a little bit mismatched when we played. Just we never played much.

Mmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Tell me a little bit about your dad. sounds like he was a key figure in your life. just from you talking about him real quickly here, it sounds like you highly respect him as a kid and maybe now. But tell me a little bit about him.

Yeah, honestly, I, I, had like, maybe not malice is too strong of a word, growing up, dad just seemed like a normal person. You know, it wasn't until I got older and I had kids of my own, I realized how fucking good of a job he did to protect us. Um, so I, uh, I found out a long time, a while back ago that when my parents were divorcing, was, me and my younger sister were slated to go with my mom.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Touche.

It was going to be an even swap. And he ended up, um, he made an agreement with her that he would drive her to the airport in Texas, um, to drop her off for that international flight. then the kids would, you me and my sister would stay at home. so that knowing that now I kind like really fucked me up. Um, that I guess I was a bus ticket or a plane ticket. That's the difference for me. Um, it's not cheap. wasn't a mother.

wow. Wow. Right? Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, that bus ride would have been a far ride.

No, yeah. So he did that, you know, and he, I never went without. He was always there for my competitions and stuff. He couldn't make, you know, end school things because he was working, but ⁓ while he was raising, you know, four children, plus ⁓ he had a wife and a stepdaughter, he tore our, childhood house down by hand and then he rebuilt it by hand.

Mm-hmm.

By himself. mean, the kids, we

Holy smokes.

helped a little bit, but my father, the house he lives in right now, he built by himself. French rats. some of the earliest memories I had is helping him demo the house and taking sledgehammers to the brick. The kids, we were just like little helpers. Every weekend we would go. So we'd go to school Monday through Friday. And the weekends we would go to our old house.

Wow, that's amazing.

help him work on him. That was an all day thing. And the kids would clean up and do maintenance, mow the lawn, and he would work. And then we would always have the same snacks beforehand. And it was probably like, you know, three bucks worth of stuff. But to me, it felt like I was eating a king, know, had like four little Debbie cakes and a drink, you know, whatnot. Living large. Yeah, things like that. And it's just...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing, man.

And then knowing now how poor he was and you know, the things that he had to go through and then doing it alone. I I had the kids to myself for two days. I'm ready to lose my mind. I couldn't imagine. Four kids, you know, I just, yeah. So it's, he's definitely, he's become like a superhero in my book and I respect the hell out of them. I, the only thing that I didn't get from him that he just couldn't provide. And I think it's just because of the

Mm-hmm. ⁓ I understand. I understand that. Yeah.

his makeup was that like affectionate piece, you know, ⁓ which is why I've always growing up as well as missing. That was the one thing, but everything else amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, my dad wasn't affectionate either. ⁓ I think he's more affectionate now, in his older age. ⁓ I don't ever remember hugging my dad either, or kissing him, or doing any of those, saying I love you. ⁓ Very stoic man, but he provided everything, anything that we asked for. Somehow we got it, even though we grew up poor as well. ⁓ I just remember the first time that I hugged him. think I was like in my 20s and I was like, this feels sort of weird. Right. And as I'm a parent now ⁓ and and I don't know about you, but I am maybe overly affectionate with my kids and doing the things that, ⁓ you know, I'd never saw my dad do, even though I knew that he loved me. ⁓ It was like one of those things where I just felt like It was missing at times. Did you ever feel like that with your dad? Like as you were, you know, in your teens or maybe early twenties?

Yeah, there was a tangible shift, I would say, somewhere around grade school, like midway where I used to give a hug and kiss my cheek every day before he went to work. And then it was like overnight one day, it just kind of just flipped, it became weird. And I'm not sure if that was me or him, to be honest with you. ⁓ But yeah, was just like ever since that period, it was more a... more stoic.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

I mean, the word you is perfect. It was as very much how it was, know, big hugs became side hugs and kisses were eliminated altogether. A kiss on cheek or whatnot. And so it was, um, and then I love you. When you say I love you to me, sometimes it would feel forced. Like when I would say it to him and he would reply it back. It's almost like he felt uncomfortable, you know, receiving that. He probably did. Um, growing up in the sixties in Alabama, I'm sure that was probably this

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

something he didn't get either. ⁓ So yeah, yeah, it was definitely a pretty much, I would say, similar to what you had. Although I hugged him a little bit. I more hugs than you guys.

⁓ What do want to be as, kid?

I, somewhere, I always want to do something in law enforcement and or the military. just, I, whatever reason that just seemed like the easiest escape for me. The thing that I could do.

⁓ okay. Yeah. Was that was that more of a desired was that more of a like if I could do anything, that's what I'd want to be or is that like the path of least resistance in your head to get out of there?

It was more, yeah, it was more of me like almost resigning myself to like, okay, here's my life circumstance. Here's how smart I am. Here's my personality. Here's what I can actually do. You know, I never had that kid dream of I can do anything I want to be. I always tried, even from an early age, I was limiting myself in those things. So, but no, was, yeah, I was always...

Yeah. Yeah.

It was always the military or like police officer. It was one of those two. It's ironically enough, it did both.

⁓ What did you like to do, like outside of occupations as a kid? What were things that brought you joy?

Playing outside was like just being myself, like being free to do what I wanted to do. ⁓ I got my first old computer. I was like 12 or 13 years old. And it was like the old family one. had maybe 500 megabytes of RAM, you know? It was a ⁓ machine. ⁓

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that was a ton.

And when I got that, you know, I always, I guess I learned how to make more and have less with that thing. And so in doing that, I learned a lot about computers and I still have that passion today. ⁓ I'm just figuring things out myself. like troubleshooting things myself, especially when it comes to that. I really like that. And it makes me feel kind of cool when people come to me for help or computer stuff. ⁓

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So yeah, did. History was always a big one for me. I can pick up a history book and just read it and my wife will just fall asleep on a board when I talk about certain things that I think are interesting. Like there's a big one about, you know, guns, germs and steel and how it relates to like military history. It's just a book about it basically like logistics and stuff. then like how, you know, was, it's been so long since I read this book, was logistics and warfare then.

Yep. Ooh, what is that? Okay.

⁓ germs, this, that affected like diseases and whatnot, how that affected migration and whatnot. so like eliminating, you know, 80 % of the North American population with smallpox and how that sort of second and third world war effects affected, you know, the colonization, things like that. So I love history and it was a big passion all the time. Yeah.

Did you always love it? has that been something that you liked as a kid and going into school you just like enjoyed studying it?

Yes, yeah, I think it just made sense to me, you know, because history doesn't change. History is, the way we see things might change perspective wise, but the facts do not change. And I think for me, that was nice because it was clean, was spelled out to me, and I was good at it because I had just some semblance of an interest. so I would, have vivid memories of elementary school and middle school where we would

Yeah.

do certain tasks or whatnot, I would finish fast and then I would just pick up the history book. I would read our school history book front to back multiple times throughout the course of the year. By the time we had gotten a certain subject or two, I had already memorized it. I was that kid.

Mm-hmm. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow, that's incredible, man. That's incredible. ⁓ Has your view of history changed as you've gotten older?

Yeah, yeah, 100%. I guess that hold over romanticized view of like American history, you know, and things like that. Where the older I get, the more I can appreciate, I guess, how history is written versus who's telling the story, like based off of who's telling that story. And so I guess providing that nuance that I guess you don't get when you're younger because you just

Right. Right.

You're so headstrong, you ⁓ So yeah, the older I've gotten, the more I've appreciated, I guess, the differences that we have. then maybe that I haven't gotten all the information on certain topics and whatnot. So I've really made a tangible effort to, I guess, read things from the other point of view. ⁓ Like growing up, all the history books and stuff that I read, like slavery and, know, and secession and all that was

Yeah.

written from perspectives of the South and you know from where I grew up and so like now I'm you reading other things other side, ⁓ understanding why things happen the way they did. Just yeah it's definitely provided new insight I guess and trying to lighten things that I thought I knew you know to be fact.

Yeah. What did you, ⁓ Andrew, tell me about your high school years and maybe a few years after that, like early 20s. What did that look like?

Lear sir? Alexa.

I lost ya.

You got it?

All right. Bye!

you're back.

I don't what that is, I'm sorry, it's like a... It kicked me out of the server.

it's all good, dude. It's all good. Probably just Wi-Fi bouncing around doing some weird shit. ⁓ It actually cut off at a pretty good point because I was just asking you the next question. Andrew, tell me what it was like for you in high school, ⁓ especially with your dad. Was he still single at the time when you were in high school?

My father got married again. I was around third grade. My parents divorced. I was in first grade and he got remarried and I was like around third I want to say So by high school we had already moved into the rebuilt house like it was like right at my saw freshman year of high school I remember that ⁓ The first year was

Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Weird, guess. So I always knew I was going to be an ROTC in high school. My older siblings were, and they were both ⁓ successful. ⁓ The high school I went to, they were actually ⁓ nationally ranked. The ROTC unit, they were, I want to say like 14th or so, which is pretty cool. And so there was a lot of, I guess, expected of me. So I used to always get, know, like baby merchants gonna...

Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

be the next commander in reference to me. ⁓ And so I kind of, I felt that responsibility a little bit. So I went into ROTC, I guess, already knowing everybody because I had been so many competitions and whatnot. And that ended up being a very central part of my, I guess, high school experience was around ROTC.

That's right. Right. Mm-hmm.

that's where I met my wife, Tiffany. ⁓ I met her my sophomore year, like in the summer between my freshmen and sophomore years, we had like a training camp that I had attended the year prior and that Tiffany had done, ⁓ my wife. And I remember like, we had these, ⁓ like knowledge sheets that we would have to memorize and we would give them like a block a day to memorize and fuck it. Tiffany, like her perfectionist self, like

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay.

this girl memorized this front and back thing and less than a day. And so we would like, I remember quizzing her that day and just being so impressed that she knew everything. Cause I couldn't do that. And I was like, it was like from that point, I was hooked. I had one friend, I would say like one good friend in high school growing up. ⁓

Yeah, I couldn't do it either. That's tough. Hahaha!

And that was pretty much it. I've always been kind of a loner. ⁓ I just, never fit in with people. was always the quirky kid or the too hyper kid or whatever. And I just, I just stuck with what I knew and what was comfortable with, which was my girlfriend at the time and my best friend. ⁓ I got in a lot of trouble. Pretty much a troublemaker.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like, doing what? All types of things.

Uh, I one time, this was actually in 8th grade, like in 8th grade once I got suspended for setting off a firecracker in class. So I still maintain I did not know it was a firecracker. The best night of here nor there. Superglue by teachers tear the floor once. ⁓ Which don't do that if anybody ever is thinking about doing it because apparently superglue is acidic and it will eat through tile. Didn't know that, but that was a fun one. ⁓ And then yeah, certain small things. I told my teacher one time he sucked in high school and he got really pissed about that. ⁓ And I got demoted in ROTC because

What? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ man, that's rough.

I don't know. For me, it didn't even seem that bad at the time, I guess. But yeah, I guess looking back, I talked a little bit before I thought about certain things. Maybe a little bit too much. ⁓ I had no filter growing up whatsoever. I just said whatever I could. I didn't know at the time I was undiagnosed ADHD. ⁓ Tiffany ended up diagnosing me. I was 30 years old. ⁓ So it was...

Yeah.

Looking back, if I had medication, I'd have been very much different experience. Say what?

That's a long time. That's a long time between like really feeling like, you know, you had symptoms of ADHD until you actually got diagnosed and got the help for it. I mean, it's like, what, like 30 some odd, 30 some odd years. ⁓ Do you, do you feel like...

It was 30 years exactly,

Maybe that had something to do with you. said you were very much a loner and you had Tiffany and your best friend. Do feel like that had anything to do with it or were there other things that ⁓ maybe caused you to be that loner type or was it just that you felt more comfortable being in a smaller group of people?

I think it was honestly more my mother and that relationship that affected everything else. so I guess growing up, I guess I learned from early age that love doesn't stick around very often, neither does friendship and things are more superficial than they might seem. so growing up, always, I always had the mindset and I was waiting for the other proverbial shoe to drop. ⁓ So it was, I, I, it's

I see. Yeah. Right.

I guess my limit or whatnot for trusting people is very high. But when I trust somebody, I trust them and I am loyal to a fault. ⁓ But it takes a lot for me to, I guess, gain that level of trust with people because of that. And so that was my big issue is everything felt superficial, even though it wasn't per se. And so was until I felt that I was receiving

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I guess an adequate or appropriate amount of love, of... ⁓ can't think of the word I'm trying to find right now but it's a cat. Yeah so it's I until I felt it and I when I knew I knew but until that it was just more of I always kept people at arm's distance. I was afraid to let people in. Also I felt like people slowed me down you know it's

Right. Yeah.

It, especially in a school setting, you know, it's just, always, I always felt like I was one of the smarter, smarter kids in the room. And I just, I just, I thought it was different. I felt different. I thought I was different. And so I just treated myself that way.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely hard when you have different expectations from the people that are around you. And it's sort of that dilemma of do you slow yourself down or do you hold yourself back? in order to fit in with people versus saying, it. Like, I'm gonna go and do the things that I know I can do and really going after it. And it does leave a lot of people behind. mean, you and I have had this conversation throughout the week about, are certain people and there are certain characteristics of people that come to your life that are there for a reason at that specific

Mm-hmm.

time but maybe you know five years from now ten years from now you start to diverge because your expectations of who you are and who your surroundings are and what your values are have changed and I personally think that's okay right like especially if you're trying to get to whatever goal it is that you want to get to later in life Andrew, tell me a little bit about ⁓ what it was like at ROTC.

High School or College?

College.

College, it was amazing. That was probably my ⁓ favorite time period in life up until now. I like to think I'm living my best life now, but yeah, college ROTC, was just, it was the first time in my life I had earned the right to be self-sufficient and dependent, you know, a little bit, as far as college goes. And look, I...

Wow.

I love the camaraderie. I remember my freshman year, I had made another friend with one of my roommates. His name was also Andrew. He's from Tennessee and instant friends. I remember we took a trip to his house one weekend randomly and he got us into like a bar that was obviously we were 18 years old at the time.

Yeah, all right.

I don't know how this dude did this, but he knew the bouncer. We got our stamps, went in, got drunk, had a blast, things like that. College, that was Nick Saban's first year at Alabama. It was 07 when I started college. So it was very much becoming a football school again. We would do tailgates every game weekend. We'd get wings and have all the RGC people there. Then former. cadets were there as well, so you get to network with people. That experience was really fun. Being out in the woods, like doing what we call them, we call them sticks lanes. That's where your like squad training exercise, I think it stands for, where you basically learn how to receive orders and I guess evaluate, know, certain orders given to you and how like the best way to apply that tactically.

Mm-hmm.

and then how you can disseminate that information effectively. So you learn like how to crawl as an officer, you know, during ROTC, those baby steps, but it was just so fun. Like looking back, you know, being out in the woods, waking up in the middle at 5 a.m., you know, in the middle of nowhere and, you know, doing these essentially like little mini war games all day. I loved it. I loved shooting. I loved... the exercise, I loved all of that piece of it. And I couldn't tell you why. It was like the grind of it. Because all we did when we were doing this stuff was complain. But looking back though, it's like, damn, that was fun. It was, And so yeah, that first year was like that. And then you progressively did more every year after that. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I had the opportunity to go to Airborne, which I turned down to get married that summer. ⁓ I didn't do that, but I could have. But I guess getting married was kind of important too. ⁓

wow. Right. Right. Right, yeah, for sure.

⁓ Yeah, so it all culminates to a big training exercise that we do. It's called ⁓ LDAC that they did at Fort Lewis, Washington. I think it's at Fort Knox. They do it now, nowadays. But it's like a month-long evaluation. And I did really well at this evaluation. I was second out of my platoon, out of like 40. ⁓ And because of that,

Mm-hmm.

I was able to get preferential, I guess, branch selection, active duty guard, ⁓ which was like the ultimate goal at the time. And then once I got that, my and tiffany's marriage started slipping a little bit from the time away and the military stuff. And so I ended up after all that work, after putting all that in, I gave up active duty to stay with her ⁓ and to go National Guard instead. Now, was like probably one of the biggest, looking back, it was like probably one of the most pivotal decisions in my life. I didn't know at the time because I came up with that idea and pulled the trigger in the same day. But that affected my career 10 years down the road. know, I would probably still be in the army if I hadn't made that decision with about six years left to go.

Right. Yeah. How did you, talk to me about that decision making process that happened so fast. ⁓ And I'm very fascinated in ⁓ how people make critical decisions in their lives and the process they go through. What did that look like for you during that time?

⁓ gosh, it was, I'm trying to capture that right now. Actually I'm writing, writing a book about that. I'm working on at least about those decisions. But yeah, I, I've that one in particular, I, had noticed us kind of like straying apart. so Tiffany for me personally was, I guess my, my anchor in life. I, I use her to base.

Mm-hmm.

all my emotions and decisions off of, especially when I was dysregulated. Should've even known what that was at the time. But she was my great steadying force and I never had that before growing up. And so I, I fought like hell to keep that no matter what. That was the most important thing to me, period. And so when I saw ourselves, I saw how we were with space. ⁓ And I guess how we were operating and the stresses that we were

Right? Right? Right. Okay.

⁓ I guess prison, bringing up in our relationship. And so it was, I want to say we had some sort of fight that day and I could just, it was something to do with me being gone again and me being upset that she didn't do something around the house. And I was in the car next to the BOM which is the BOM was, it's the Bureau of Mines. It was the building that we called the ROTC building. I was sitting out in the car and I was just like, I don't want to do this.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay.

if it's going to be, end up with me being divorced. I guess it was more of the fear of that. And then like, know, it really felt like I was making a conscious decision in the moment of choosing my marriage. Like, I my marriage to last or not? And like, I really, I thought, you know, down to my core that that was going to be, this was the decision. I could see where the light was headed. And so it was, yeah, I remember ⁓

Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I made the decision, I called Tiffany, I told her, hey babe, here's what I want to do, this is why. She's like, okay. And I went inside and I signed the paperwork. It was boom boom. And I transferred the scholarship over to, was called, was a GRFD, it's a Guarantee Reserve Forces duty. So basically I was promising to go into guard instead of active duty. And then like a couple weeks after that, ⁓

Mm-hmm.

We had something called, was the Tuscaloosa Tornado is what everybody calls it, but it was an EF5 tornado that went through Tuscaloosa, Alabama. ⁓ Tore the whole college up, towed my car. I love that car too. And so because of that, got activated ⁓ with the guard. And so I was able to do like a month long, it was a month long, I guess, event or activation. ⁓

Right. Wow. Wow.

that ended up being very, I guess, formidable, I guess for me, or formative, I should say, ⁓ for an alternate career in my life. I was able to experience an actual disaster and how I responded to it and an actual chaotic, you know... ⁓ I seen. I saw how I performed under pressure in those environments. That was the first time I actually was proud of myself. ⁓ It was... And it really, I guess, struck home that I made the right decision. ⁓ I felt like I was making a difference, as opposed to just doing a bunch of training all day with nothing to show for it. Because at the time, we weren't really at war anymore. ⁓

Yeah.

I was in college from 07 to 11, so we were at the drawdown stage for Afghanistan and Iraq. I was slated to go for like two deployments and both times they got pulled because of that. So it was like, that was the first time I could actually make a difference. did like search and rescue operations like that first night. I remember.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What was that like? What did you, what, like what, what does, what does search and rescue look like for the people that don't know?

It was like, for us, was honestly just getting on a big line. so when people get on range, like when you go clean up ranges, like everybody gets in a line and you just walk down the range and you pick up brass. And it's honestly the same thing. It's a mile long line of soldiers and we're just looking for bodies. So yeah, I was doing that, that first night, which was sobering, I guess.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure.

Very much so. ⁓ So that was that first night. I didn't see anybody dead, thankfully. ⁓ But that first night we did that, second night, second day I snuck out of the headquarters to go back out and do more fun stuff. I ended up doing checkpoint security and helping stop looters.

I love how you characterize it as fun stuff.

The rest of my time in comp is sitting in front of computer and sending out orders to a bunch of company commanders who hated being ⁓ receiving disseminated information from a cadet. So at the time I was at this limbo rank where I wasn't technically enlisted, I wasn't technically an officer. Your rank is cadet. And so every time you would say something to one of the officers or a senior enlisted person, like, thanks cadet.

Right, you're right.

I really appreciate the heads up. Like, time, was this big, you. ⁓ so that's why I didn't enjoy so much.

⁓ huh, huh, ⁓ yeah, I understand. I understand. Right.

But yeah, they're getting out and doing like the real army stuff, but actually feel like you're actually doing something instead of just training over and over. That was fun for me. Even though it all amounted to just standing there, walking in a line or just standing in the same spot all day. It was new. Yeah, so we did that. We would hand out, know, the headquarters I was stationed at also served as a headquarters like for food and whatnot. and aid to be brought into and distributed. So being able to do that and hand out food and MRDs and cases of water and all the bang you could ever want to drink in your life. It's a lot of it. So yeah, all that. was a very rewarding period, even though I lost my car.

That's a lot of bangs. That's such a crazy experience and to be able to help people during that time just must have felt so fulfilling. I've never done anything close to that and I would imagine, you know, after that period of time and going back to quote-unquote the real world, like what was that like?

How do we shoot it? Um, boring. It was, I was lucky enough to live close enough home where I could commute home every day still after, like, that's my shift at the headquarters at the armory. But it was 16 hour days. I would get there like 7 a.m. I would leave, you know, late.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And so yeah, I loved every second of it. I loved being needed. I loved being able to solve, you know, quick logistical issues and, you know, fixing them. And so doing that and then going back to working at the shoe store I worked at, ⁓ my college job, it was very much night and day. And so yeah, it felt...

Mmm. Yeah. Yeah.

What's the word? I guess being like I was being reduced back to a normal regular person, which I, my life pursuit is to not be normal. Whatever that looks like, I just don't want to be normal doing it. And yeah, I hated it. I fucking hated it. I wish there was another disaster I could be activated for, you know, like a nice hurricane or something. But no, no, that was.

Right, well, you know, there's a bunch that go through there.

That was the only time I ever got activated for the military. If I would have stayed in, there was a bunch more I could have been, you know, got picked up for. My friend who's also an MP, I was an MP. So ⁓ military police platoons or companies, they get activated quite frequently for things like that. Just because it's almost like the jack of all trades in the army. Military police officers, they do a lot, a lot more than people realize they do. ⁓ So it's. Very much, I could have more opportunity if I would have stayed in. I'm glad I didn't. I still don't regret that decision at all.

What did you do after college? What did life look like?

⁓ I bounced around a lot, So was like the first four or five years, I'm sorry, well the first few years we had issues finding employment. Because my history is fucking useless.

What time period is this?

So this is going to be 11 to 15, I want to say 14 or 15. So my son was born in 14. So yes, 15. So from 11 to 15.

Uh-huh.

I bounced around a few jobs. I worked at Merriam Military Institute for a while as a admissions counselor. ⁓ It's a military junior college, so think ROTC, but instead of four years being an officer, it's two years, and then you're an officer. There's more caveats, but that's the gist of it. So I did that for a while. ⁓ Just kind of fun. It was also very boring and I hated it. ⁓ pieces of it. ⁓ Did that, then I went to training in Missouri ⁓ for BOLIC, which is like your army training to learn how to be a military police officer. That lasted four months. And after that, I was a juvenile detention facility guard. I was a guard at a juvenile detention center. I did that for like a year and a half.

Yeah. Wow. Okay. How did you get that gig? Or like, how did you stumble into that?

Unless it was like a- I can't remember. Me and Tiffany were both looking for jobs. We had moved back. It was post-military training and we were both just had like kind of shitty jobs. So we decided to move back home where we grew up at and pursued careers there. You know, our family. And yeah, it was just open. And I was already an MP. I kind of just fit in with that. It was nothing like I expected it was. I mean, I thought it was going to be like, you know, like the, like the little shows you would see like Mari or something where there was drill instructors coming in and yelling at people. Nothing like that. I played so much Spades. want to say, like my day consisted of playing card games, the kids, and then just being on my phone and the little control center, you know, just doing bed checks every 15 minutes. It was very boring, but also.

Right? Yeah. Yeah.

I got really good at spades. Just want to point that out. Really good.

I would imagine with that many hours. ⁓

Yeah, that was, we fell into it. And then after that, we moved again. Tiffany got a job as a youth pastor in the middle of nowhere, Alabama. And I didn't have, there was nothing there. I ended up selling heavy duty drug bars. For like almost two years. Which I hate everything, I hate everything there is to do about like the mechanics and whatnot. That's not who I am at all. But it's what I did. We did that for a while and then I

⁓ Wow. Right. Because you felt like you had to do that or was that something that you just stumbled on and it was an opportunity? How did you commit to that?

It was very much, very much a had to do it thing. It was the first job I could get. and I still had a supplemental income, you know, with the military. I had that as well. So I had that pay. And so, it was just something I just found and I was able to do it. It was easy. ⁓ pay was horrible, but it was me and Tiffany were young, didn't have kids. We didn't care.

Right?

It was more just trying to make it by while we figured out what we were doing. Um, and so we did that. We stayed there in Demopolis, Alabama for like, for two years before moving back home again, uh, for the last time. And that's when I finally, um, I got on with H hardware. Like I, I basically, got on, I got on with, warehousing, um, in the warehousing industry, I guess you could say. Um, and so I found that I was good at it. Um, it's much like. any other logistics, you know, career, whatnot, just moving things from A to B and knowing why you do things, which I'm good at. And so once I saw, I guess, the pay for the next level, as far as like supervisors go and set their salary, staff, I started applying to positions all over the country for supervisor positions. And that's when I got hired on.

Right. Mm.

Eventually, it took like a month or two and I finally got a job in La Crosse, Wisconsin. And so me and Tiffany.

Yeah. Where's that? Where's, where's lacrosse like relative to Wisconsin? Like is that north or south or?

It's going to be west. It's right on the Mississippi. So Wisconsin is separated by the Mississippi River, Wisconsin, Minnesota. And so it's I, I want to say it's I-84. Is it 84? 84-94. I came over to the interstate. There's an interstate that runs right by it. And it's right on the border. It's on the border. And so it's, we live right next to Minnesota. And it was cold, very different.

Okay.

Growing up in Alabama going to lacrosse within the first month of us moving there. We saw snow a lot of snow including snow in May, which is not should not be happening ever in my opinion, but Yeah, it's That was a I guess the first time we felt like adults and we were able to I felt ⁓ that I was

Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, right.

learning how to be a successful adult and actually doing adult things and being responsible. 15. So this would be from 2015 to 2020. So we were there for five years. Tiffany got involved with the church again there and she also finished her master's degree during this time period and so I don't know

Yeah. What year was this, Andrew? There's a lot of TV shows about truck drivers too, so I believe it man. There's a lot of that. wow. Okay. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think? What do you think about you, Andrew? ⁓ May Jolene stick her neck out for you. What do you think are some characteristics or things you did? Because I'm a firm believer in vibes as well. I use my intuition a lot for the work that I do. But I'm very interested in how people choose the types of people they want to have in their circle and the types of people they want to support. What do you think about you made her stick her neck out? Mm. Yeah. Great.

fixed issues and whatnot. ⁓ Are you still there? Did you lose me? Dang it!

there you are. Alright. You were talking about equipment issues.

Right. Yeah, things like there are external factors that affect everything and so it exacerbates ⁓ I guess the stress that we felt and the Transportation Office and it very much felt like a Because of that it felt like an us versus them Situation where we would get pushed back from other warehouse like staff members and whatnot because

Yeah.

decisions that we made might not make sense to them because they don't have the full context of certain things. And so for Jolene, it was very important to have somebody that not only understood that, but also had her back and was able to, you know, just stick the guns and stuff saying, yeah, I don't know why Jolene made that fucking decision. That doesn't make sense to me. So it was, I think it was that, ⁓ she expected loyalty and in turn she gave loyalty.

Yeah.

It was very much a give and take, it it wasn't a friendship, but it was like a, it was the first time I felt, I guess, not babied and supervisory sense. She actually let me, she gave me room to grow.

I love that.

Sorry, it just happens again, I'm gonna tether my wifi for my phone instead.

It's all good. It's all good ⁓ Andrew was this the first time that you and Tiffany were away from Alabama when you guys moved to Wisconsin?

Yes it was.

What was that like like from a just just from a home perspective what did that what did that feel like for you?

It was... It was very different. We tried to, ⁓ We compared a lot, I guess. Everything we did, we compared to how it was like in Alabama. So we noticed those differences right away. ⁓ Culturally, it was a, not a shock, but it was just a market difference. Food was different, way to go to talks was different, what they did for fun. And so it was, was more of, was, in some ways it felt the exact same as Alabama. And in other ways it felt like it was, it couldn't be further.

Yeah.

You from that. it was, you kind of got both, a little bit of both worlds. ⁓ we didn't dislike it, but we also never fell in love with Wisconsin. it was just almost like a means to an end for us, ⁓ to a means of escape, you know, from Alabama and just to be able to grow on together unburdened from that.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, nothing like being away from where you grew up to force you to look at your responsibilities and be like, shit, I can't bring, you know, my kids over to my parents' house because they're a few states away, right? And so you got to figure that shit out. ⁓ Yeah, we had the same thing, you know when Samantha was born we decided to move to California Where I went to college for a little bit and I wouldn't trade it for the world, you know I love California, but it never really felt like home at least to me and ⁓ You know, there were a lot of times where it'd be like Christmas and people are still wearing shorts and Birkenstocks I'm like this is not Christmas, right? Like this shit should not be happening, but I like the fact that there's a lot of things as a parent that I had learned. ⁓ Just being away from your parents who, you know, will tell you, like this is what you should do as a dad, you know, or this is how you should be raising your kids. And I thought that was probably like one of the best things, at least like being away from home myself. Andrew, what did you do after Wisconsin?

Nope, I would agree with that. Um, at Wisconsin, we, uh, before we were like looking for an exit plan, Tiffany had gotten her masters, but she was still making less than half of what I was making, you know? And so was, uh, mental health is not valued near the same way in the Midwest and in the South as it is, you know, out West. Um, and, and pay is not even close to comparable. So we started looking, um,

Mmm. Right?

a few major cities on the West Coast, Sacramento, Portland, Seattle, ⁓ or the big three. And we were looking for either something through my job or through hers. ended up an old acquaintance that she knew from high school ended up was a supervisor with a place over here that had their own, it was a private, it was a nonprofit company ⁓ that does mental health work. And Tiffany

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

That was her end and she ended up getting like a basically a shoe end position for them. And that was enough to, us to pull the trigger and move out West. We made that road trip out of it, which was awesome. We drove like all the way to Alabama, dropped the kids off and then we drove West by ourselves out to Oregon. lot of fun. That was probably one of my happiest memories was that trip.

Yeah. Yeah.

It was very much an us thing. It felt like the movies kind of trip, know, like a trip like you would see in the movies. And then, yeah, at West, it's when we really, really discovered ourselves. We, I guess, really pushed the limits to what we were comfortable with. And so we slowly started growing away from the church. I stopped going altogether. I decided I was atheist. We, like our friends that we were making were

Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Right. Right?

not the same type of people we would hang out with before. We were more open to other cultures and other ideas, more so than we ever were before. Work, Tiffany bounced around a few different positions in therapy, and fortunately landed where she is now. I started at a few logistics jobs. I worked at FedEx for a little bit as an operations manager, and it felt like I was working for the devil. I hated that.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Wow.

The culture going from ace to that, I wasn't a fan. And then yeah, I started working at a place ⁓ doing shipping metal out, ⁓ recycled metal and whatnot all over the world. And so was doing import and export for recycled metals. I did that for three years as a logistics coordinator.

Right. Mm-hmm.

and I ended up losing my job. By losing, I mean I got fired. I didn't know it at the time, but I had undiagnosed major depressive disorder. ⁓ It's probably a...

Yeah.

I think looking back, it was more of a burnout thing for me. me and Tiffany have always just been go, go, go. And I had never learned to, I guess, say no to things I was afraid to. And so it was those things kind of built up and I just became useless as a parent, as a husband, as a worker.

Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

And yeah, I ended up losing my job, which in retrospect,

Were there things, ⁓ Andrew, sorry about that. Were there things that you saw during that time ⁓ at this, was it a sheet metal place or a metal shipping place? ⁓

go for it. It was snitch or steal at the time, so it was basically all sorts of metal, non-ferrous and ferrous, anything that you can strip down and sell. They sold it. Even cardboard.

Wow. Were there things that you saw during your time there that made you feel like you were in this state of depression or were there certain events that really just led you to feel like you were ⁓ not in a place where you were being valued? What did that look like?

For me, it felt like, or looked like just a constant state of... being behind. It's not like I can't catch up feeling. It's more of every place I go, there's more that needs to be done that I have failed at. So I wasn't seeing the things I had to do in that big mountain. I was more seeing of the people I let down in every facet of my life. And those things would kind of accumulate for me. It's almost like I was banking them. And it became

Right. Right.

so much of a burden that you kind of just shut down and you get decision paralysis. There's no energy. I remember I would wake up at 5 a.m. to go to work and get there really early. But I wasn't able to go to sleep at night until midnight, 1 a.m., sometimes later. And those things just built and built and built. And so it was...

Yeah.

I think for me, the biggest thing was imbalance. Having that life imbalance where I wasn't giving myself or allowing myself to take breaks. I wasn't allowing myself to not be perfect. ⁓ Even though I was already far from perfect in my head, I still have the idea of perfection. So was always trying to chase that and failing at every opportunity because perfect doesn't exist.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. For sure. How did you know to get diagnosed?

My wife. Tiffany has been diagnosed with depression a few times. ⁓ I've seen the way she was, but I was never able to... I never stalled myself like that until I allowed myself to be vulnerable to myself. ⁓ It was very much an ongoing conversation with Tiffany and her kind of... helping me see the rut I was in. I will say that the decision to go to therapy and to get medicated, that was all my decision, but that was born about by or through conversations with my wife about that, which it's cheating a little bit because she is a therapist. So ⁓ you can spot those things a little easier. I'll take it.

Hey, you know what? I mean, use the resources you got, right? Like, that's a resource that you have. Yeah, I'll take it too.

So yeah, that was, guess the, when I got fired, that was the driving factor for me. I'm like, all right, I've got to make changes. ⁓ And that kind of really kickstarted, I guess, my self discovery phase, know, figuring out who I am and I guess what I want to be. Yeah, it sort of feels like I'm at the tail end of that right now and ready to do something else.

What were some of the first things you did after you got fired from that job? Like how did you sort of like get yourself back on your feet?

⁓ at first I tried to drown myself and I guess stuff at home. ⁓ I would, I started like hardcore, you know, running was a big one actually. So that was the year I ran my, ⁓ my first half marathon or I the only one so far. I got really big into fitness. ⁓ so I running a ton. I started cooking all the meals and stuff at home and

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

trying to clean up as much as I can. Still not great at that one. But yeah, take as much ownership as I could to take things off the plate for my wife. But in doing so, I found out that I found myself actually able to juggle these things and I allowed myself to slowly take on more. But I also at the same time was teaching myself how to say no and ask for help from Tiffany when I needed it.

Yep.

The first few months, I would always apologize when she came home for not having done X, Y, and Z. And it took me so long to actually believe her when she said, I didn't have to do that. I didn't have to justify myself to her, to anybody. So that was probably the hardest lesson I've had to learn was not having to do that. I've always felt like I've had to explain away my things that weren't perfect.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I, you know, being a stay at home dad right now as well, it has definitely been a weird shift in how you see your values and how you see how much value you bring to your family. And, there's definitely days where I struggle with that as well. Or, you know, I'm like, did, did enough things off of the checklist get done or like if I'm taking a break, like, should I be taking a break? Right. Because like that structure of work and that structure that you get from an employer is gone. And all of a sudden you're left with creating your own structure, but also like the biggest thing is enforcing that structure. and there's nobody else to enforce it except for you. And that's probably the hardest part of it. And then giving yourself the grace to be able to say, today wasn't the greatest day, and didn't get half the shit I wanted to get done, right? And to... be okay with that and like it, I still struggle with that sometimes ⁓ when I feel like I didn't do enough. ⁓ But for you during this period, ⁓ what did that, what did your days typically look like and how did you sort of get over making sure that you're giving yourself that grace?

⁓ so I would, my, my, my day started waking up, getting the kids ready for school, making breakfast for Tiffany, ⁓ beforehand, taking the kids to school. After that, I take the dog out and like a long walk. I'd go to the dog park for an hour or so and then go work out and then clean a little bit for like an hour or two, three hours.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then it's already time to get the kids from school after that. And then after that, I'm with the kids. I'm either playing with them, cooking or cleaning. And then I always tried to make sure I gave Tiffany a break when she got home. And so I was, I just busied myself with things, you know, and I always tried to make sure that everybody was taken care of. And I used some of those daytime hours in between where I was alone, I guess for me time.

Yep. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

because I knew that the evening time, even though my wife was going to be home, I also wanted to give her that same kind of break for her. And so that was, yeah, it was, it took a while to be okay and comfortable with the idea of giving myself time in the middle of the day, as opposed to when work was all finished. But once I became okay with that idea, it really, I guess, made things easier to accept for me. Like you said, myself that grace to

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

take a break and to not be perfect as far as you're getting everything done and I want to get done in a day. So it's the biggest life lesson I've had to learn is that you're never done with housework. You you're always in a state of living and for whatever reason, I vehemently just hate that idea at its core that I can't be done with it. But

yeah. Yeah, that hamster will, man. Yeah.

I had to accept it.

Yeah, it's that hamster wheel that just keeps going. It's the gift that keeps on giving, right? Like every week, day in and day out, there's something to do. ⁓ Andrew, I want to talk a little bit more about ⁓ depression, the year depression. ⁓ you know, one of the things that society has placed on us, especially in the Western culture, is this idea of

All

you know, being a performant person or being able to perform so that you can have successful, quote unquote, successful outputs, you know, make more money, shareholder value, build a business, whatever that may be. And more times than not, there's so many nuances to how you actually get to that point. You know, when you were going through depression and I would imagine it's not something that happens overnight, right? Like I, I would imagine that this is something that has come in some form or another throughout your entire life, but how did you sort of shift your mental model or shift your approach on what depression looked like now that you've acknowledged it and you're getting treated for it? How did that shift for how you approached your future and... you know, job you took up next, like, like what were some of the things you did differently?

It's more of, I guess, how I view myself. Like for me, depression was, when I boil it down to its core issue, was not valuing myself. And so I would, I always placed others before myself. I was afraid to, I guess, I was a big people pleaser. guess I still am to to a some degree. ⁓ And so, so being comfortable, I guess, giving myself,

Mmm. Yeah. Great.

time and you know what not investing time in myself so like working out now and having that routine of doing things it's for me it was it's those simple things getting myself time to do that giving myself adequate sleep ⁓ just getting a bottle of sleeping pills was one of the biggest game changers for my mental health which it seems so easy you know but I ⁓

Right. Yeah. yeah.

going from four to five hours sleep at night to getting six to eight. Who knew? It actually helps.

Yeah, I know that feeling very well. I know that feeling very, very well. As you know, like I'm not a good sleeper and it really fucks with you.

But so that, and then another big theme for me was rejection sensitivity. So I, I've always been acutely aware of just small like tone shifts that people have whenever their mood or something changes. ⁓ And that's just from general anxiety growing up with the way I did. My, my stepmother was emotionally abusive ⁓ and withdrawn. And then I didn't get it from my father. And so I.

Mm-hmm.

Growing up, was always, you know, scanning rooms and whatnot, just to make sure I was safe. And so I'd pick up on that. But what that did was, it always left me on high alert and normal day-to-day functions. And so at work, that looked like always searching for the next thing to go wrong, instead of having the inverse, you know, positive mindset, expecting things that I'm doing to go right. And so by approaching everything from that lens of view of negativity, I found that negativity crept in to every corner of my life. You know, I was always looking for the negative as opposed to positive. ⁓ I did it so much, I had to get the thing tattooed on my arm, like a phrase, build your dreams, not your nightmares. As a reminder to myself, you know, to, yeah, to basically

Mmm, I love that. I love that.

To think your own success, for one better word, you know, it's to manifest it. Because when I found that when I'm living in a sea of negativity, negativity's gonna get in my boat. It just happens. It's gonna splash in there. So it's... I never thought that... I guess I never realized how influential just having a mindset of positivity...

Yeah. Yeah.

can be on your life and the effect it has.

Yeah. Andrew, did you pick up another job after you got fired ⁓ from the metal place?

Just a small part-time job working at Target unloading a truck. And that was just for some money. And at the time, we didn't know how we going to get health insurance ⁓ because Tiffany's job is a much smaller office. And so they didn't carry, they didn't offer health insurance at the time. So I worked at Target for like eight months and then ended up getting burnout just because of the hours and we didn't need the money. And so... I ended up quitting again and just being stayed home. So we have a special needs son that's autistic. My other son has ADHD. So it's just my house is a zoo sometimes with them. And when I am well rested, I'm a much better father, which means that they get more attention.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. As we all.

Right? So it's, it was, ⁓ it was more of a, guess, brought about by a need to, to be, I want to be a better dad. It just, it was just too much. It wasn't worth what I was giving up. And it wasn't, it's not, it's not, it wasn't a career. It's just a job, you know? So I'm, I'm spoiled, stay at home now. and my, honestly, I, the best dish ever made my youngest, ballistics son, he's taking off developmentally from where he was even a year ago. And so it seems like I've invested enough time where I can see like the, you can see the finish line, I suppose. ⁓ I'll be able to go back to work and actually do stuff and be a product, feel useful again beyond just at my house. But it was, guess, reframing that was really important for me. Like I guess.

Yeah.

reframing what I do, not in a lens of what I've done career-wise, but what I'm providing for my family. Once I was able to be comfortable with that idea, was able to, I think I would like to say, be a successful state home dad.

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. How do you think the how do think the boys ⁓ have changed how you have ⁓ communicated and responded to and listened to others. I would imagine being a stay-at-home dad is a lot of work. For those that don't know, ⁓ there's... you know, something happening at every minute of every day. But I would imagine that with the two boys right now, especially as they're a little bit younger, ⁓ there might be like a little bit more extra than, you know, a family with say just one kid, right. ⁓ But even with the special needs on top of that, there's even more ⁓ than somebody with kids that don't have special needs. Like how does how has that changed you? and how you have approached listening and responding to things and just as, know, from a ⁓ basic approach personality-wise, has it changed you? And if so, how has it?

Yes, it's absolutely changed me. And the biggest way for me is actually discovering more about myself through being a parent. And so these kids are mine and I can see it through their actions. And so it's like, I have moments where I'll be mid conversation with my kids or mid argument, whatever it is. I just have to stop myself and I'll look at Tiffany and say, I'm sorry.

Mm. Right. Yeah. Yep.

And then she'll ask about what and I'll tell her, premonition I just had. it's, I will, I will think of things in real time that me and Tiffany have struggled with for years. ⁓ because of a hangup I had or an issue that I had that I could never, you know, get a grasp of. And through being a dad and raising other neurodivergent kids, I can see those same behaviors.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And because I can live it, I can understand it. I live it from a third-party perspective. so I think I've become a... They have helped me become a much more rounded adult just through being able to parent them. I've definitely become more patient since being stay at home with them. I am...

Mm-hmm.

It shit happens around the house, you know, and so it's being okay with that and not letting it, you know, kill, know, kill your day. Like for instance, my youngest son knocked, he put all his weight on a shelf the other day and it came down and I had to rehang it. And then this morning he took his pull up and for whatever reason decided to throw it down the stairs and it landed right on top of that shelf again and knocked it down.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That shelf wasn't meant to be, my friend. It wasn't meant to be.

It was like... ⁓ I was like, what can you do, you know? At that point, it didn't mean to do it. So sometimes you can just laugh. It's of fun. It's a... I'm still very high-strung, but I would say that having the boys and being stay-at-home has definitely allowed me to appreciate, I guess, the why for things, know, why they happen and why people are acting the way they are and having, I guess, care for that and...

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely.

know that even if somebody is not doing a desired action or whatnot, if I can understand and appreciate why they're doing that, then I can at least be okay with it. So it's been really fulfilling, I guess.

Andrew, you've had so many different roles and identities throughout your years ⁓ from provider, ⁓ soldier, partner, parent, caretaker. ⁓ How would you describe sort of if you had to take the characteristics of all those things, what are some common things or common themes that you think all of them have that describe you now?

Honestly, I think it's more of just, just, for whatever reason, I think I thrive in chaos, like manage chaos. I like to go into situations and make them stable and then extricate myself. And so it's...

Yeah. Right.

I guess I've always felt like I've been thrust into certain situations and I just made the best of them. And then once I felt like I was at a stable, you know, period, I could move on to something else. Monotony kills me to a certain degree. I cannot stand it. I am not built for, I think, long-term office work. I guess...

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

those life experiences has, I shown me that and allowed me, I guess, to be comfortable with that idea that my idea of what success was, I guess those goalposts have now moved to a degree. so it's, yeah, it's, I truly, I now embrace the jack of all trades, now master of none kind of mantra instead of, know, hating it.

Yeah. You mentioned the goalposts, your goalposts has moved for success. For the stay at home dads out there that are struggling with being a stay at home dad, because I think even now, society, it's not the norm, right? Like, you don't hear about stay at home dad stories, you don't hear about success that they're having and all these other things. And I've met your kids and I think ⁓ a great reflection of how a parent is doing is through their kids and what they're like, and both boys are amazing. ⁓ If you had to speak to the stay-at-home dads that are out there now or dads that maybe are in transition and will become a stay-at-home dad, what are some things that you would tell them about what it's like and how to be successful?

It's, for me, it's been trying to create consistency in a world of inconsistency. it's, mean, my day is chaos, but it's all managed. it's, I think that finding happiness in your work is, I guess, paramount to being successful. so,

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Finding happiness for me as a stay-at-home dad means I have to, first and foremost, be happy with myself and the role I'm playing. so it took me, I want to say probably the better part of a quarter of a year to be okay with the idea of me as the man not bringing in, you know, money. ⁓ And then whenever we had money issues, that popped up for whatever reason.

Right. Right. Right.

You know, not taking that personally and not saying if I was only working, this wouldn't be happening. And so it's being, being able to, I guess, contextualize that idea and actually believe it and live it was everything for me. Cause once, once I was comfortable with the fact that the only difference between my wife being stayed home and me is my gender. And that's it. Then.

Yeah. Right? Right? Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

I'm able to, I guess, separate myself from that, I guess, false lie or false truth, whatever, that I am less than as a man for, you know, not being at work while my wife is. And it switched from being ashamed to say that I would stay at home to now, I'm fucking proud to say my wife, you know, is the sole breadwinner and that because of what she does and the sacrifices she makes at work, that I can be stay at home.

Yeah.

And what that bleeds into is my kids hearing me praise my wife, you know, when even she's not around all the time. And so they can respect that. know that they can see me respecting her and then respecting my position as well. ⁓ ask stay at home. And so I, I am happy and at peace with the fact that I know my sons are going to grow up not thinking less than somebody or

Mm-hmm. Mhm. Yeah.

thinking it's less than of somebody for doing something that's not stereotypical for their gender. know, mom working, dad staying at home, doesn't matter.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there's like a big difference between, you know, the the stay at home dads that are Be grudgingly doing it and not enjoying it or force feel like they're forced to versus others that genuinely Love it. Like I've I embrace as much as I can Being around my kids all the time To to a fault where they're just like are you ever gonna leave? right, because I I went from like traveling half the year for multiple years to now being here all the time and the Orient there they're of what the world looks like has also changed. ⁓ And expectations of you has also changed to a point where I feel like when I do get that next job, I wonder what their expectations will be of me when I'm no longer here all the time, right? And what that looks like, but we'll cross that road when we get there. ⁓

That's a fair point. I am scared about the same.

Yeah, it's hard, man. It's definitely hard. Andrew, last two questions, my friend. So, we talked about, you talked about success, and I think we used the word, like, what does a good life look like? But I wanna, I wanna ask you, what does a good life look like now, where you are with where... you know, the kids are and your marriage and, you know, being in Portland versus being in Alabama. ⁓ What does it look like now compared to what you once believed it should be when you were growing up?

So I would say that growing up, I measured it off of. prestige and so the entire first 25 30 years of my life I chased that high of having prestige, you being an officer being a leader in my workplace to You know and then having that same for Tiffany and then because of that I can afford X Y & for my kids I can afford this daycare they can go to whatever they want to do whatever and I guess

Right.

The older I've gotten, and I don't know if this is circumstance or if this is just experience. I couldn't tell you. Maybe a little bit both. But honestly, to me, happiest now just looks like, are my kids happy? You know, because I'm responsible for my own happiness, and so I can control that. And Tiffany's responsible for her happiness. So I do my best as a husband, as a provider, to manage that. so we're at a point in our lives where we're both good.

Mm-hmm.

And it's the only thing that matters to me anymore is my children. And I view my success based off of them now. And if I have nothing else, I want my kids to say that I was a good dad. Like that is the most important thing to me. am, Tiffany's mother is a really good litmus test for me because growing up, I hated the woman. When I first met her as a teenager.

Yeah. Yeah.

Because I always thought that she was just too involved with Tiffany's lives. But the, ⁓ I told her this too recently, the, the, the love that she has for her children and her daughter, especially, cause I see it. It's, I learned how to love my kids from that woman. but I guess the way to love them and, and, and, and, ⁓ I guess the depth of how much, how deep it can go. And I went from.

Right. Right.

know, kind disliking her. I want to be just like that woman. I want to, my kids, to say that I love them the same way grandma loved mom. And so it's, yeah, it's for me success.

Yeah. What are some things that you think she did throughout the years that has changed ⁓ your view of who she was as a parent to Tiffany? Are there certain events or personality traits that you have grown to love over these last few years?

It's unconditional love. She has never once faltered in praising her daughter and supporting her daughter and by extension myself. Any time that... We as a family had needed something. She has always been there. I have never gotten a no from that woman ever when it came to helping the family out. so it's she, um, and then I guess the more I've gotten in the more context I've gotten from Tiffany, as far as the sacrifices that she made, you know, going up with, you know, with her children. So it's, she worked three jobs at one point, um, you know, to get by, but she still never missed a school event ever. even. like spelling these, the sillier participation awards you get. For Tiffany's entire life, that woman didn't miss one event. And I mean, I'm not saying that people who do miss things are bad or inherently bad, because they're not. People have jobs, have lives. But the fact that she was able to, the fact that she put so much emphasis on that and made it work, it just makes me say, I want to be like that.

Wow.

I want to be that type of parent. If I could be half as successful as she was as a parent, then I think my kids will be ⁓ all right.

Yeah. Yeah. Andrew last question is probably a good segue. It's probably good segue to the last question. But ⁓ when your kids, let's just say 20 years down the line, they stumble upon our conversation. What do you hope they take away from this conversation that you and I are having?

I lost you at the last question. No.

We almost had it.

All right, we were almost at the tail end. I'm going to ask you the last question again, we can edit it in. right, Andrew, last question. So 20 years down the line, when the boys stumble upon our conversation today, what do you hope they get out of what we've talked about in the conversation?

I would hope that they [my children] can see or learn that I don't do things because I think I have to do it. I do it because I want to do it for them, for my family. The choices I've made through my life have culminated not out of, for me personally, not out of ambition. Every choice I make in my life is based off my family. That has held true at every stop of the way. I chose my family when I went to Alabama. I wasn't married to Tiffany at the time, but ⁓ I got a full ride to a different college and I ended up turning it down to stay with Tiffany and I left the guard and then I left my career twice. ⁓ So it's, it's not being afraid to take risks when it comes to supporting my family. ⁓ I'll never apologize for that. It's. I am 100 % at peace and I think that they will grow up knowing that unequivocally I supported them instead of my own ambitions. So to me that's important. That's what's most important to me personally.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean the theme of sacrifice and selflessness ⁓ has resonated so loudly in our conversation and I've really appreciated you coming on, telling your story, being vulnerable. I think there's so many people out there that are going through very similar things. So thanks for coming on the show, Andrew. I wish you well, my friend, and I'll talk to you soon. All right, see ya.

Take care, down. Thank you.