The Most Powerful Leadership Skill Nobody Is Teaching: How to Actually Receive Feedback

are some things that people can do so that they are getting that feedback? and it is part of their everyday life.

I think what's most important is to invite the feedback. Right? Like we used to say that to leaders, like you asking for the feedback means that you're showing like, want to talk about what's not working. Please tell me. And the more you show up for that, show that you can handle it. Right. And you're not, there's not the defensiveness. There's not the, no, I have feedback for you. All of the like bad things that shut down feedback. ⁓ I think it's the ability to invite it.

Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

take it in, apply it, it, you know, or even if it feels like it's not applicable to have a grown up mature conversation about it. Think how little that actually happens in families for the most part. Certainly when you get.

it's hard. It's hard. I know that's like if you were to ask my wife, one of the things that she thinks is frustrating about living with me is there are times where I'm really, really good about taking in the feedback and there are times where it's not great. Yeah. But it is really fucking hard. like, I wonder if there are best practices and things that

La la la. Yeah.

organizations, world-class organizations that have done so that other people that have never worked there can apply that to their lives.

I think it's important from the get go in any relationship or organization to say feedback, like feedback, talking about what's not working matters. It's important. Yes, it's uncomfortable. Humans are wired for connections. So feedback conversation is really hard, but we have to talk about it. Right. Because otherwise problems, things don't get fixed.

Mm-hmm.

Today's conversation is about something that we all say we want, but we rarely practice consistently. And that's giving and receiving honest feedback. lives in a performance review or leadership books, but the kind that shows up in our everyday conversations at home, at work, and in those quiet moments when it would be much easier to stay silent. My guest today is Tre Wright. She spent years working at the intersection of leadership, culture, and people development, including a long tenure at Netflix during a period where the feedback culture became a reference point for the industry. works as a coach helping leaders, managers, individuals navigate change, identity, and the uncomfortable growth that comes from self-awareness. In today's conversation, we talk a lot about why feedback is so hard, how leaders can invite it without defensiveness, what world-class organizations get right and wrong about culture, and how identity shapes the way we show up at work and in our life. We also talk about job transitions, fear, community, and what it means to keep choosing growth when the world feels heavy. I'm really excited to present my conversation with Tre. Let's get it.

Welcome to Life Between Titles. I'm your host, Savan, and today I've got my friend Tre with me. Tre, how are you?

I'm good. I'm good. A little nervous. This is my first time doing a conversation like this, so be kind. Just kidding.

No worries, this should be a fun conversation. Tre, before we get started, it looks like it's super sunny where you live compared to the rainy flood weather that we have here in Washington. Whereabouts in the country are you?

I am in sunny Burbank, California. So yes, it is like this most days.

nice. Yeah, I have a friend that lives down there and I know that when we talked initially, we covered Burbank a little bit, but there's a big horse community there, isn't that right? Equestrian, is that what it's called?

Yes, yes, a huge equestrian center ⁓ over like back behind where Disney studios are. It's beautiful.

Yeah, do you know the deal behind that? Like, what's the history around that?

You know what? I don't. just know that that's like one of the real like the older neighborhoods, you know, between Warner Brothers. There was a lot of production and filming that went over here. There also used to be Burbank was for a long time, a lot of orchards before Lockheed came in a World War Two. And so, ⁓ yeah, I think it's just always been that. And so people move to that neighborhood. ⁓ You know, it's it's great because you're like, ride my bike down there and you'll get to the crosswalks.

Yep. Yeah. Yep.

and have your normal one for the bike and then you have one for people who are up on the horse so they can cross the street, which is awesome.

Is that like a common sight over there or is it pretty rare? What is that like?

⁓ I haven't seen that before, ⁓ but I thought it was pretty cool.

Yeah, no, I loved living in that area just because there's such a crazy amount of energy, but also it just feels like it's old Hollywood in some ways. I don't know if it's old Hollywood or new Hollywood, but just the vibe of the area is amazing. Every time I go there, how long have you lived down there?

We've been on this part of LA for 10 years. So we moved over here after we, my daughter was like about three or four, we lived in closer to Paramount. Strangely enough, we live close to studios. ⁓ But you know, there's lots of green space and wider streets and things. So we're like, okay, it's time to move to the valley.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Tre, you sent me some information about yourself. ⁓ And one of the things that you told me was you either were born in the South or grew up in the South. What part of the country were you born in?

I'm in northern Florida, so Jacksonville is where I was born and raised.

Gotcha. Gotcha. How was that time being raised there?

Um, you know, look, I try to avoid stereotypes of the South, but, uh, you know, my high school was Robert E. Lee Senior High School. Um, so, you know, we had, um, the Confederate flag on like one of our yearbooks. And so the South does have its stereotypes for a reason. It's just not everybody fits those stereotypes. Um, but you know what I went to, graduated from Florida State.

Okay. ⁓ Mm. Wow.

And after I graduated, maybe stayed in Florida for like one more year. And then I moved to Atlanta, which is still the south, but a big city. So.

Yeah, yeah. What made you move to Atlanta? By the way, Atlanta is one of my top favorite cities in the world. I just feel like every time I go there, have a great time. But what made you want to move there?

⁓ You know what, the Olympics were coming there, so I thought that was awesome. ⁓ And also, when you are gay in the South, young and gay,

Yeah.

It's not, you know, it's fairly conservative place. And there's usually a few cities that are like the more progressive Meccans. so Atlanta was like the San Francisco of the South. And so it was like, go there, you're going to find community. It's going to feel more inclusive. ⁓

Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

So yeah, I was there for about eight years. I really liked it. ⁓ Met my partner there. She moved out to California. I came like maybe a year later and we've been here since. I don't think we planned to necessarily be out here for this long, but California has a way of keeping people here.

What made you Burbank? I I think about the cities in California with diversity and different types of people from different parts of the world. Burbank wouldn't be the first place I'd choose. How did you guys choose that?

It's a great point, and I would say Burbank used to be that way. But we have family who live over here, and so was great to be close to them. I agree with you, like Burbank would not have been that place.

Okay.

And I would say when the big real estate boom happened and people got priced out of LA, a lot of people came to like Burbank to Glendale. so if you go to like, we have a local park near us, definitely a much, a much more different makeup of young families than what it was like 10 years ago, which is great.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. I went to school at Occidental ⁓ for a year before dropping out and trying to get rich real quick before that failed miserably. But I felt like the types of people that are in that area ⁓ are very interesting because you've got the movie industry, which is pretty big down there, but you also have people that are in tech. I think Snapchat is around that area.

Yeah.

What was it like ⁓ as a young professional, living in that area and trying to start a business or do these types of things that you wanted to do?

Sure. Well, the great thing about Burbank is we actually, it's a very old neighborhood, ⁓ really got, I think, fully established when Lockheed came here. And a lot of these neighborhoods were built out in support of the labor force for that. So we have families around us. They're like second generation in their house or they've lived there for like 50 years. So it's a really interesting makeup of.

Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

who has Christmas decorations, who has a Hanukkah. And ⁓ down this little area, Magnolia Burbank, go down there, Magnolia. It's really mixed young people there every Saturday. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

So it's a great mix of a neighborhood. In terms of starting my business, I would say a lot of that was still very much founded in the network that I established at Netflix. So I was there for like 15 years and during a high growth period. And so lots of people I know from there. So it was a little bit more about starting the business from people that I already knew.

Got it, got it. I would love to dive into your time at Netflix at some point in the show. We don't have to do it just yet, but they've been making waves by acquiring Warner Brothers too. I just, or I think they acquired them. I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong.

Well, yet well, they're the dramatic, you know what, what my cat is trying to join in the... Come here, bugger. Okay. ⁓ you have a cat too, right? So this is him. Yes, I'm going to put him down though, because he'll take up, he'll hog the camera if he can.

Yes, do it. Bring your cat in. I love it. Mm-hmm. yeah. ⁓ that's such a cutie. Yeah, I love it.

⁓ the latest twist in drama is that Paramount actually came back and is doing a hostile, trying to do a hostile, ⁓ offer directly to Warner Brothers stakeholders this morning, which was like, yeah, which is wow. Okay. ⁓ so yeah, it was pretty cool to see that. I think I did like a little post on LinkedIn, but the idea of being there when, ⁓ they were fighting it out with Blockbuster and

Wow. Yeah.

buying DVDs and Warner Brothers was like that big 800 pound gorilla, right? When it came to the like, you weren't going to get them to to do much of anything that you wanted because they were so huge, right? And so it is a little mind blowing. I lived on the street from Warner Brothers, too. So, you know, I was telling my daughter about it. She was like, so that's going to be a Netflix, you know? And I was like, we'll see. Because she knows me from like

Yeah.

early Netflix going to like when it was a small office over in Beverly Hills, then to the big building in LA and then now that and so ⁓ it's mind blowing to her and I'm and I have so much more of a deeper understanding right of of what that what that means there's significance of it.

Mm-hmm. I'm always interested in how kids, specifically our kids, describe what we do for a living. I know my daughter, all she knows is that dad works at the Pentagon or he worked at the Pentagon and now he's unemployed and I spend time with her. how does your daughter describe what you do?

Mm-hmm. Well, so when I was at Netflix to begin with, did content operations. When you say that to people, anybody outside of, you know, ⁓ marketing or streaming will go. And so I would try to explain to her, we take the movies from the studio to make them and we put them through and so you see them on the site. Very like simple, simple way. What was really funny is when I would go to her preschool with her, ⁓ I would have like these little, you know, notebooks that had Netflix on it. And I remember one time sitting there and I had left that sitting on the table while I went to do something and came back and ⁓ one of her little friends was like, can you watch Netflix on that? Like, they just saw the logo. And I was like, no, but that's, you know, really funny. ⁓

You Yeah.

But then I moved into HR my last five years there. And that she could understand a little bit more, right? Because it was, and it was, you think about it, good bridge from going into coaching. So I'm like, well, here's my job. I help people. I work with these people this way. And she also understood the hard part. She's like, so do you help people, like fire people? And I'm like,

Mm-hmm.

Yes. So she kind of learned some of those more ⁓ nuanced parts of what it means for people to work and hired by all of those different parts. now the coaching piece, she actually can kind of get that more because you say coach and she has teachers and, you know, choral directors. And so for her, she's like, OK, I get that a little more.

Yeah. Yeah. how did you go from content operations to HR? feel like there's a step that I'm missing there. What was that step?

you know, I think it was, it's something that was a unique to happening within Netflix. I'm not sure that it's not like it's never been, it's been done before people shifting from the business into HR. But, ⁓ I think because Netflix had this very specific culture. So I spent first 10 years, acquisitions, DVD operations into streaming operations, everything from building out like account. manage account managers with the studios to building out the digital pipeline for localization and QC and everything to support originals. I even started the very first small iteration of the post production group. knew nothing about post, nothing about post, but that's actually kind of reflective of Netflix too. It's just like, we only have a few like titles and

Mm-hmm. Wow.

you know what the business needs, go hire somebody, right? ⁓ After a year, was like, take somebody else take that. Like that's really, really hard, that's a really hard part of the world, ⁓ you know, entertainment world to manage. you know, I had built out this like multifunction team and like any big startup company, you hit inflection points of where generalist to specialist makes more sense, right? And so,

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

my group along with some other product operation group went through a re-arc and the way it kind of worked out like the things that still remained in my scope I was like am I like still really excited about this I have this amazing leadership team but if I stick around I kind of like that limits the way they grow and I was like you know maybe it's maybe it's time for me to like look around or leave and ⁓ my boss at the time I was reporting to the chief product officer and he was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let's think about this. You have this like very distinct voice in the culture in leadership because I had been really active in leadership development, facilitating, you know, ⁓ seminars or the like parts of the the like leading at Netflix was like a program that all new leaders had to go through and very much a voice of inclusion.

Mm-hmm.

like organizing ERG. I had this, I had this pretty strong presence externally to a lot of like women in tech. And so it was, Hey, you have this really unique value. Let's, let's figure like, maybe there's other parts of the business. Cause I would say the other, the other value that I had to offer was that I knew how to start things from little and, and build it up, right? Like, like I would incubate like post-production. Let's start it, hand it off, start it, hand it off.

Mm-hmm. Right.

And there was like, you know, kind of a anxious week of what are going to do? I don't know. And then the chief people officer said, have you ever thought about being an HR business partner? And remarkably, it was like the thing that I actually thought was a really, really cool job because I had amazing HR business partners and I liked what they did. They got to solve people problems, which is the thing I was most passionate about.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

And so she said, do you want, you know, what do you think about being an HR business partner? And I was like, I don't have a degree in that or, you so like, I don't have that license to operate that machinery. she was like, you, don't, that's not what you need. She was like, you know, sure. If you want to go get sherm certified or, but we have employee legal, like people who know the law, you know, the business, you know, the business and you know, the culture. And so, um, you know,

Yeah. Right.

there was like this built in credibility of, it's one thing if I come in as a very traditional HR person and I'm talking to, you know, like the head of corporate operations and I'm giving him coaching and guidance. And if he looks at me and it's like, well, you actually haven't stood in my shoes before. You don't know how hard it is. And it was like, well, no, I actually do and did. And so it was this like, okay, let's do that. And the reassurance was people were like, yes, that.

Right?

Totally makes sense. Coming in with a lot of trust when you're an HR business partner, when most people are like, ⁓ HR's in the room. But me coming in with this, you know, again, voice of inclusion, very much, ⁓ you know, the Netflix culture was not easy. ⁓ But for people who really believed in it, it was reassuring to have an HR business partner who would

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

keep leaders accountable, who could teach it, right? It was like this cultural competency that you had to, you know, ⁓ learning curve get to get through really quickly to be successful in the Netflix leadership. And anyways, yeah, so.

No, I think that's amazing. Tre, you know, back in the, would say, ⁓ gosh, maybe 2010s, maybe 2013. I can't remember when now. There was a Netflix manifesto that floated around the internet, around the values and all that stuff. And I know, I think I was at Amazon at the time and a couple other startups, but I kept on coming back to this manifesto of the values and the things that Netflix thought was important and it was written very well. can't remember who wrote it. It might have been written by a team or maybe your CEO. ⁓ But the thing that I do remember is the amount of people on Reddit or these other forums that would refer to this thing and say, yeah, this is the real deal. This is how Netflix has operated. I would imagine it's helped with retention, recruiting, and all those other things. Like from your standpoint, when you were in HR, how did you guys reinforce these values that you guys had at Netflix? Like what did that look like?

Sure. Yeah, I want to just acknowledge real quick, they had what they called the culture deck. And, you know, there were like these core principles that they talked about, context, not control, freedom and responsibility, but the core values. And that's actually why I wanted to go work at Netflix when I read, you know, would say like, honesty.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep. Yes, yeah, all rings a bell now. Yep.

you only say something to people's face, you know, like it was all these different, what does it mean to have integrity? And I had worked at a really political environment like the year before, ⁓ which I hadn't really done before. I had been really lucky with the companies I worked with. And having been in this like, very political, I didn't know like who to trust and so I read these Netflix core values and I was like I want to work there. It's a little daunting, a little scary right? You know people are going to give you real-time feedback and I'm okay with that because I'd actually rather know if I've, the analogy, I've got spinach in my teeth please somebody tell me.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ But the, so the core values to, I think, to give you the answer to your question is they were integrated into everything. So Netflix had an annual 360 feedback process. Anybody in the company could give you feedback, even if you didn't ask them to. CEO, people, you know, it all in this app. You go in, you can give feedback to anybody. You ask people for feedback. In the beginning, it was just around those core values, which was important, right? Because now you're talking about cultural understanding, cultural competency, the ability to keep each other accountable to this framework that we have signed up for. And ⁓ in fact, when I was...

Mm-hmm.

an HR, well, even as a leader and then HR business partner, when people would say, I don't know how to give good feedback, or I feel like I'm really frustrated. And I'm like, okay, well, that's not the time to give feedback. And if you're feeling unhappy about a situation and you walk away, there's probably one of the core values that you could tie back what you're having a reaction to. So did you feel like the person wasn't showing up with passion or... wasn't selflessness like you because you have a value and you'd have these different descriptors and if you could frame feedback around one of those core values then that had it was a shared language and now you had this ⁓ more of an anchor to ⁓ okay what you were looking for was ⁓ what's one of the other ones ⁓ innovation Right. So you felt like I was not offering a lot of new solutions or we get what I'm saying. so it was used in hiring, obviously, which had kind of a catch 22 because some people would over rely on culture fit and using that as a asking people to recite.

Mm-hmm. Right, right.

essentially like from memory, what you know, tell me about selflessness, tell me a time you did and that wasn't necessarily helpful. ⁓ But yeah, it was used in every, it was integrated into everything.

Great. Interesting, ⁓ What was it about those sets of values that drew you in specifically? ⁓ Were there a handful that you just said, those reflect who I am at this point in my life? Or was it more generalities of, generally speaking, I want to work at a place that's striving to be more inclusive, that's striving to be more innovative?

sure, know, inclusion wasn't a core value yet. That didn't come until ⁓ later. It was honesty, but I wanted to be in a place I'm very much a direct, like no BS person. And so let's talk it through. ⁓

Mmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Passion was one because it really was about loving what you do and bringing that energy to to everything Selflessness was super important to me and it was like I remember one of the descriptors was ⁓ If you walking like you pick up a piece of trash that you see

Okay.

Like, you know, it doesn't matter your CEO, there's a piece of trash in there in the hallway, you're going to grab it. And the whole idea that you're thinking about the greater good, which very much appealed to me too. And so, you know, this idea of like being in it, which I think anybody who's been in startups, like that's one of the really meaningful parts of it. I'm here, like I'm not, it's not about me. It's about what's best for the business.

Yeah.

⁓ All of that really appealed to me as a person. So it was very much values aligned with who I was and who I wanted to be.

I see, I see. ⁓ Tre, I wanna take it back a couple years to you growing up in the South, because I feel like there's a lot of these experiences that you've had that have led you up to where you are now today of having this coaching business, working at Netflix. I think at one point you were maybe consulting for Crunchyroll. These are some very high aspirational things that a lot of people... Like if they had a choice, they would have exactly sort of like what you have right now working at these great places. But what was life for you like as a teenager in the South? And what were some of the things that got you excited that you were passionate about?

Sure. ⁓ Let's see, so when I was younger, I was really big into sports. I was an only child, so it's like I wanted to be out. ⁓ When I wasn't out playing sports or outside, was inside listening to a lot of music. Music was like a really good companion.

Okay. Okay.

⁓ What was great about that is the different generations of music taste within my family. My grandfather was into Big Band, my grandmother was into crooners, my mom was, ⁓ you know, Beach Boys music, her name's Barbara Ann. So, ⁓ and then my aunt who had to be the antithesis of that was into the Beatles and, you know, and I grew up with all this really great ⁓ music and

Mm-hmm.

My first job was doing retail, talking about like babysitting, you know, my first job was retail and I really liked it. Like I liked working with people, cash register. I find that I always say retail is the quickest way to teach you manners. ⁓ you know,

Okay. yeah, for sure. I worked at Banana Republic for a while. I would highly recommend that to anybody to build a lot of these skills.

Yes. Yes. ⁓ And I did that going into into college. Well, I'll say one thing. In high school, I was a big athlete and I played soccer.

Okay, what'd you play?

like growing up. ⁓ And then when I got to high school, did softball, I did golf, volleyball. Volleyball is actually the reason why I ended up changing from like a magnet middle school, like college prep to a public high school because I actually really wanted to go play sports. I liked, again, coming back to that kind of like community and being with a lot of people. ⁓ But, you know, being a teenager, I just was always

Right.

always involved with something, I think, because I didn't want to like be home by myself. And ⁓ I have to my mom worked single mom. And so I often got myself adopted into different people's families. So I wasn't I wasn't home, ⁓ home much. You know, the other thing about growing up in the South, though, was I didn't come out as gay and probably until college, as a lot of people do.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ but I, but I had a few, like I obviously like I had some sense and, ⁓ but like in the South and so, cause I graduated high school in 87, gay people still got beat up, beat up then. And so there was a lot of just like being inauthentic. Right. ⁓ even though when I came out later, people were like, yeah, I'm not surprised. I'm like, they know more. We'll stop there. ⁓

Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

I don't want to know why you, how you put the dots together. and then when I went to college, I, ⁓ needed, I got back into doing retail and one day I was like, you know, I love music. Like I had started doing some, some DJing like very like haphazard DJ.

Mm-hmm. ⁓ like radio DJ or like going to a club? ⁓ okay.

No, no, no, no, no, like parties, like fraternity parties or when I was like mixtapes galore, right? Like you see all those, you see all those Gen X, you know, memes about all the cassette tapes, but I loved it, right? Like recording American Top 40 every Sunday and then making all those mixtapes. And it never occurred to me that I could go work in a music store. Cause I actually kind of thought like you needed to be a really deep music expert and ⁓

Yeah. Yeah.

And I was, I just didn't put like give myself that. And, um, well, I was like, okay, I'm going to go apply part-time. And so I worked in this place called turtles, a record bar, and they did video. They did record, like videotape recording and then music. I proceeded, I did part-time until I graduated from college with a international affairs degree that I wasn't, I don't know what it's going to do with it. Uh, it sounded cool. I love sociology and history and everything.

Okay.

And I needed to pay my rent and so they said, do you want full-time hours? And I then spent like 10 years with that company, ⁓ Blockbuster. was like music retail was kind of like everything got eaten, right? and anyways, worked for a Blockbuster, bought us. I always say retail too was my very first lesson in people leadership. People don't get into retail because they make a lot of money.

Yeah, for sure. I remember that. Mm-hmm.

people get into retail because they need to pay the bills, right? And so the idea that you're going to be able to motivate people, make them, you know, look forward to coming to work and dealing with customers. ⁓ But it was fun. Like everybody who worked at the music store loved music. And so there was very much that passion. And I was in Atlanta working at music stores, Atlanta in the 90s, which was like the center of...

Right. Yeah, wow. No kidding. No kidding.

R &B and hip hop. And so we always had amazing, amazing people either come into shop ⁓ or doing in stores. ⁓ But the last store that I managed was like this 18,000 square foot superstore. And so we

so you went from literally just working to now managing these massive music stores.

So I went from... assistant small store, small store, managing a really high volume small store to managing like the flagship store there. And then I ⁓ moved to becoming a buyer. So I was like a regional buyer, which was great. I had to understand what, what rap was selling in New Orleans versus what was selling in Dallas, you know? ⁓ and again, I loved it. Like I loved every, every aspect of that. It's. It's funny because when people that fast forward to like women in tech and they're like, how do you get into the industry? I was like, well, I started in music retail. Not an obvious, you know, there is something to be said about building up your skills when it comes to people, when it comes to problem solving, right? Operations as a core shows up everywhere. And I was always a strong operator and retail started that. So I did that for 10 years.

Yeah.

moved out to LA. Chains started shutting down. And so the company that I was with started closing down regional offices. And so I had a chance to move out here to LA. And then I worked with Virgin, the music stores, which was great. Did that for three years, and then they started selling iPods. And that was big. And I was like, okay, I think it's time. And ⁓ then I spent one year

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

at ⁓ Sony on their DVD distribution. I'm totally dating myself here, but DVD was still big, was the thing. And I was responsible for like inventory management for their Walmart and their Best Buy stores. And talk about an 800 pound gorilla, like Walmart was. Yeah. they iron fist on all their partners.

Yeah. No kidding. No kidding.

Which was probably why where I was was fairly political, right? Because it was, you were kind of living and dying by the DVDs, number of DVDs that you sold. ⁓ Milo noticed, by the way, number one, like DVD 599, then you had to keep all the stores and stock all that. ⁓ But it was an important bridge, though. I think that was a super important bridge for me to go like, OK, physical media into more still like alive physical media.

Mm-hmm.

And that was ultimately the bridge though that led me to Netflix because there was a guy there, his name was Jeff, and we were only in a few meetings, but I must have made enough of an impression on him because when I applied for Netflix later, he was already there. And so he's the one that got me into an interview.

Wow, holy smokes, that's quite the journey. ⁓ I didn't expect it to have as many twists and turns as it did. It seems like there's common things that you've taken regardless of what job you've had. If you could summarize maybe in a word or two or three what those common things are that have sustained you throughout your working at you know, these record and cassette tape shops back in the South to Atlanta to Sony and to Netflix and now to your coaching business. Like, how would you sum that up?

Mm-hmm. The through line would always be passion.

Okay.

I left out that there were points in my career where I would realize I kind of hit, like maybe not as much of a passion. And I would step back. I would like step back out of a manager position or do a lateral or move over because I needed to have that excitement. I'm really excited about what we get to solve today. so passion being a really, really big part. zig, you know, career zigzag following, following my heart and saying, okay, what's the thing that feels most authentic to me? Most natural to me. So passion, a really big one.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Helping, like helping, supporting, like the idea of coaching or developing. Coaching has always been part of what I've done. Well, when I left Netflix, I said, whatever I do next has to be about generating good. Whether through this person or through this product or through this, has to.

See? I love that.

have a virtuous cycle that that comes from it, a positive, otherwise I'm, it doesn't, it doesn't, I don't feel good about it. I don't feel like I'm actually contributing.

Yeah. There's been a lot of anxiety in the world and stress and pressure for a wide variety of reasons. And my hot take is that I think we're at a point now where it's significantly harder to find good in the world than it was, let's just say, 20, 30 years ago. How do you think, people that are in this situation can start to look for the good that's out there or start to manifest it or build it. Like what do you think ⁓ that could be transpired as ⁓ if they're sort of feeling all these pressures and anxieties in the world?

Mm-hmm. It's a great question. It's one ⁓ that I've been doing a lot of wrestling with, not just the job market, because that in itself, but if you're a part of a community that's been historically excluded or that is being openly attacked. So I identify as non-binary trans. And so, you know, obviously with the new administration coming in, it's like 18 executive orders.

Right, right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yep.

in the first two weeks targeting the trans community. ⁓ A colleague of mine who also left Netflix, we were talking through this like what can we do? And ⁓ the idea of allyship actually isn't fully possible right now because all communities are turning inwards to take care of themselves. You know, if you're in the immigrant community, the Latino community,

Mm-hmm. Mm.

sure, I care about the LGBTQ, but my community's under attack. Right. And so this idea of turning inward and being like, okay, how can we take care of each other? And it's not trying to exclude. It's just you get what I'm going through and we need to take care of each other because things are really hard. And so to go back to what you're saying about how do you find good, I think it's actually turning on and looking right around you. Who's in my community, family.

Mm-hmm. Right?

Who are the people that are right around me who maybe I didn't give as much attention to or I was missing, right? But it's like, what's in the immediate that I can either do to support somebody to make them feel, you know, and it's the small acts, right? It's like the very small acts. ⁓ But I think that's the good. you're like, how can I help this one person right now?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What do you think are some ways, so in a lot of my conversations, we talk about practical things that people can do to maybe organize their day or organize, start to organize things so that they can be a little bit more efficient in their job search and they're not feeling like they're spinning their wheels as much. ⁓ But for individuals that feel like they're not getting anywhere because either nothing's happening, they're not getting calls back, all these things are sort of compounding in a very negative way. How do you think they could break that habit so that they can start to see that good around them and start to sort of contribute back to the rest of their community? Because I fully agree with you. I think leaning on your community and not just, you know, taking or giving per se, but being able to have that good balance so you're not burning yourself out on one end or the other is exceptionally important. ⁓ But from your perspective, ⁓ what does that look like and how would people do that?

Mm-hmm. You know, one of the biggest challenges that people have being in this job market is the doom scrolling on LinkedIn, right? The idea that you need to be on LinkedIn because that one opportunity might come up that you may miss that now the, you know, the application window was closed. And so it's the first thing they're doing, right? And, ⁓ some of the very, just like fundamental tactics that I work with clients on doing is establishing a

Yes. Yes. Yep.

You know, but. establishing a routine of, okay, well, we know that the job postings, a lot of them, the new ones come out on like Mondays, maybe Tuesdays, if you're going to do the application, like coming up with that, and then having the discipline to say, I'm only going to give the, let's say it's like, I'm looking at jobs, and now I'm saving them. And I'm only like, I'm going to go apply to them on this time, but I'm, I'm doing this, teaching folks how to create like,

Mm-hmm.

more intelligent job alerts so that things are being served to you in your email box versus you, you know, again, digging and clawing through. Being clear on what does, what could work and what doesn't, but even still putting a a container around it.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

I think the thing that burns people out most is the chase. It's the constant. And I went through it too when I first left Netflix and I was like, okay, I'm gonna go find something else. And it was like the endless chase, whether it's networking, cold outreach, everything. Most people are like, they really have to grit their teeth to go through and do, but they're trying to do it all at once because it's this scarcity mindset.

Right. Yeah. Right.

Which I'm not saying isn't warranted given this like horrific job market right now, particularly if you're in entertainment tech entertainment. And burning yourself out is not the thing that helps you find the job, right? Like it's because then you can't show up if you do get a conversation. ⁓ so it's boundaries, putting up, putting a routine to your, to yourself. So again, I've been guilty of doing that myself and ⁓ having those boundaries and then piecing in the things that you know are going to be good. So I think like you and I with our schedules, taking, I love taking my daughter to school. I like picking her up. I'm going to block that time because well, when she's my daughter as a freshman, it's only going to be so many more years that that goes away.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So I could spend ⁓ an extra hour doing some marketing for myself as a coach. Is it gonna pay off? I don't know. An hour to go pick up my daughter and hang out? Always gonna pay off, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I love that, Tre. I wanna maybe take a step back and talk a little bit about coaching and what that means. I know that there are people out there where their only experience with a coach is in high school or middle school or on a team, but if you had to explain to the everyday person what a coach does relative to your expertise. How would you explain that?

I think there's a few different ways in which a coach shows up for people that I find helpful. I'm here to listen, right? You know, and I work with a coaching platform, Mento, and these businesses will license like Mento as a, professional development. And for a manager, midline manager who may be struggling, may be feeling overwhelmed, I'm as a coach, I'm here to listen.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Like sometimes just being able to have that vulnerability of like, is really hard and I feel like I'm not successful. So the listening and then the support that you're offering. That's often the door that then starts to curiosity. the questions. Sometimes it's helping people realize, you know, that imposter syndrome, that's a story that you're telling yourself. Let's find a way to dial down the volume of that conversation and look at, it could also mean these things, right? So perspective, helping people have ⁓ more perspective on what's working, what's not working. And accountability.

Mm-hmm.

It's like the whole thing of like, you and I are going to sign up for a gym membership together ⁓ because we're going to, I'm not going to leave you hanging at 6am. I could, but then, but then now, ⁓ but that accountability, the thing I always say to people though is like, I'm not accountability, like I'm your judge or your teacher. You're not going to get dinged. In fact, I'm never here to judge you. I am here to listen, point out, I'll be direct, compassionately direct with you, because I know that's actually what you probably need. And I'm here to keep you accountable.

Mm-hmm. How do you work with people that have such diverse personalities? mean, you go to any executive boardroom or even, let's just even take middle managers, right? In companies like Netflix, there's such diversity in the experience that these managers have, what they've been taught, what they're learning. As a coach, how do you dial in to

Mm-hmm.

making sure that you're communicating with them at that right level where they can understand okay, these are the expectations that I've set for myself. Here's what I'm going to be accountable for. And then be able to follow through with these types of things. that was like for me, I had my first coach ⁓ when I was at Rebellion Defense and her name's Kate and she was fantastic. And she got me through so many things, but we spent, you know, probably the first, I don't know. five sessions just trying to figure out how the hell I actually talk to people and how the hell I actually produce work so that she can be effective. But from your experience, like how do you do that? What's your secret?

I think it's first really getting a sense of what matters to that person. You know, I have some leaders who are more tapped into the emotion of the team or they tend to be maybe a bit more of an emotional.

Okay, okay.

person and so what's the language that they use? do they show me that they prioritize? Because now I can start to decode if I'm talking to them about setting a goal, it's maybe for this person it's going to be about the leadership and being an inspirational leader versus being not versus.

Okay.

or like a leader who's like, I'm about all about results, right? And I inspire through setting a high bar. and, so it's understanding who are they? Who do they, who do they want to be? Why do they want to be that? ⁓ Because what's important? What's important to them? And then being able to come back and say, okay, ⁓ if your goal is to

Mm-hmm.

create greater understanding alignment, buy in from your team about these goals you're setting for them in the new year. Let's talk that through. And so really drawing out ⁓ what's important. Yeah, I'm repeating myself at this point. Look, what's important for that? Because otherwise I'm just kind of putting something on somebody, right? Like I've had some clients I do, you know, like get to know you sessions and some people are like, do you have a framework that you work with?

Right. Right.

And I'm like, I actually don't have like this, go get this book, read it. Because I tailor my coaching to what's happening with the person and what they want most. Which is a lot like when I was a leader or as an HR business partner. know, it's coaching, meeting the person where they're at, helping figure out where they want to go. Sometimes it's managing expectations of how realistic that they want to get there. Urgency versus like, ⁓ you know, what's practical.

Right. One of the things, so over the last couple years, I have started going to a therapist and I never did it. It was always one of the last things that I would think about. And recently I've started going and my wife and I, we've gone to couples therapy and I feel like for me there's these trigger points of saying, holy shit, I need to get my ass to therapy because I got a lot of shit going on.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

need to figure out why the hell this is happening and how to get it fixed. But I feel like for something like coaching, ⁓ are there certain things that happen in your life where you're like, okay, I need to go get a coach or what are some of those triggers that happen that people can see or maybe even expect and plan for where they can be proactive at getting a coach?

Mm-hmm. No, I think one of the most common ones is folks that have been in the same position or same, you know, like general sphere for a long time and they know they're not happy. And they're still not quite sure.

Mm-hmm.

or maybe they don't have the faith that they can make that jump or they feel like I don't exactly know how to do it. ⁓ You know, one of my first clients really wanted to go start her own business and felt like she just there was fear, there was fear. And so ⁓ helping people see like there are things you can do, practical steps and that we're going to break it down. Where's the fear coming from? And it's funny that you said about therapy because I always say there are things that I might suggest to you if you have a therapist that that's a good conversation to go have with your therapist because that might be feeding this story that you're telling yourself about why you can't do this in your career. I always want to like...

Okay. Well,

keep that there, right? And it's like, let's talk about the fear of why, why are you not ready to like, well, I wasn't money. Okay, well, let's get real. Like, how do you, you know, how comfortable are you in knowing your finances, right? Like, and you help people see that things are. achievable, but the trigger to go back to what you're saying is I'm spinning, I'm finding myself looped in the same conversation that in the stories that I'm telling myself about, I don't love this boss. I feel like I, I could never get a job at Netflix because that's, I'm not good enough, right? And so as soon as you start to find you're repeating yourself, it's like, okay, is this really like a external issue or is this, you know, am I stuck at this point?

Right.

you

Interesting. What are some practical things that ⁓ your business does for people? Maybe explain to the listeners, know, when they sign up to work with you, like, what can people expect?

⁓ I mean, it's a great question because I work with a few different clients across different reasons. I've got folks who are newer in their career, early career people, and they're trying to figure out what does it mean to become successful. And so that's where I bring my just, you know, my business expertise of, okay, you want to figure out how to be a more strategic thinker. Let's break that down. ⁓ You're a new people leader and you are comfortable having hard conversations. All right, let's break that down.

Mm-hmm. Okay.

You are tired of your job, can't afford to leave it, and know that the job market is really hard. All right, let's talk about some boundaries and how you want to manage your energy so that you're not giving so much into something. And it's not like not a quiet quitting thing, but it's like, how do you better manage your energy and in a state of acceptance about where you are until this is better? And so it's, again, it's trying to get to the real talk. of why do you think you are where you are? Is that true? Right? Like the there's the saying, ⁓ feelings are real, not true. So it's like, I have this feeling that I can't do this. OK, that's but that's probably not true. So let's, you know, let's put the fear up over here and let's talk about the practical. And so. ⁓

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

And I would say one of the biggest ones also was just I, the reason why I loved people leadership is identifying, you have that, you have that wisdom spark. Like I can tell you make, you make good decisions. You're thoughtful. Or I noticed that you're the person that like all your peers go to when they need advice, right? Like identifying the different sparks that exist in people.

Mmm.

and helping them see it and then helping them think about developing it, right? And so for me, there's also a really important part of being a mirror and saying like, you actually already a strategic thinker. Let me reflect back to you the story you just told me. And let me tell you why I see that. ⁓ okay.

Mm-hmm. Hmm. I see. Interesting. Tre, I want to ask a fun question, and there isn't a right answer to this, but I would love how you think about this scenario. So for individuals that are thinking about taking the next step and starting their own business or starting a new endeavor of whatever it would look like, ⁓ if you had to go back And let's just say you started Netflix again from scratch and you were running it and that was your business. What would be some of the things that you would prioritize on day one, knowing that, knowing the things you know now when you're starting this new business?

That's such a great question. It's funny because I... I feel like I can tend to put Netflix on the pedestal of, ⁓ you know, the smart decisions that they've made, not perfect, but that have led to now and the things that were within their control versus not. ⁓ Doing differently, I think.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I actually, I think that context is hard for me to think about because they had clarity on what their product was. They had clarity on what they would not do versus what they would do, right? And they had a very distinct culture. They were clear about who they hired. So I don't know if I would do so much different there.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

So yeah, maybe that's like maybe a different question. Maybe it's a me starting over again or I don't know, maybe reframing the question.

Yeah. How would you like it for people that want to be entrepreneurs and that want to start their own business, if they came up to you and they said, Tre, I have this desire to go out and do things on my own, control my own destiny. What would be some of the first things that you would tell this person so that they can be set up for success being an entrepreneur?

Sure. I mean, the very first practical thing is, ⁓ do you have the financial runway to give yourself time to build it out? ⁓ when I first started coaching, I actually had a fairly successful first year because of like the network that I had and people are like, it always takes at least two years to get your, like your business going. And I was like, ⁓ I'm of the curve. and then year two hit and I was like, ⁓ okay.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

It does take a while, right? so, ⁓ and that's one of the biggest stressors is the money. Like, can I keep doing this? So get clear on your money. Like how much time would you give yourself? ⁓ so that that's not something that's taking away from the efforts and the energy to what's your, what's your product or maybe there's two to three products. What is that? ⁓ the niche that you are trying to. So what's unique to you that you have to offer? ⁓

Yep.

It's that clarity, getting pulled like I myself have not. ⁓ I think sometimes I've been a, having been a generalist and then kind of this, in one way I've had this like broader different parts of my career. I could go, well I can go do operations consulting, like crunchy roll. ⁓ Super passionate about doing DEI ⁓ flooded market. Like I could go do that coaching or all these different things. But if I'm actually trying to go in so many different lanes. then I'm probably not, you know, I get a little tired and not always successful in all the ways I'm going after it. So to say to somebody, be really clear about the thing that you want to do, like one to two things and just like put your focus there so that you're not spending too much energy into places that might not take you as far.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I have that problem too. Like I'm very susceptible to the shiny toy syndrome where you'll read something you're like, oh yeah, I've got to go and try that out or do these things. And the next thing you know, you've got six projects that are 50 % done and none of it's getting 100 % of your attention. What do you tell people that are susceptible to that? Which I feel like there's so many tools right now.

Yes.

and apps that they're designed specifically to take your attention away. So you don't have that working for you in many ways, but what do you tell people that are susceptible to the shiny toy syndrome that need that focus so they can stay on the right path to doing those one or two things?

Yes. I think it's good to have a friend who is going to anchor you to that. You're like, hey, I've got this, whether it's like a mentor or ex-colleague, somebody, you're like, I have this idea or here's three or four different things I'm thinking of. And you're said to the person, be honest with me. ⁓

Mm. Yeah. Right.

I would, you know, it's funny, I had this realization last week. I've always been a people person and I love, I'm so much happier, more productive, I think when I'm in collaboration with people. And so when I'm trying to do these things on my own, sometimes the motivation lags or the overwhelm. I have like a whiteboard that has way too many ideas on it, right? And so, ⁓ but so having somebody who, could be a coach, it could be, you know.

Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah.

But having somebody that you want to go, you say, have this idea, what do you think? Or I think this is really good idea, but I don't know if I'm the person to do it. Like you need a truth teller in your life, think is really important.

I feel like one of the hardest things about being unemployed that you lose out on initially is you go from these places that have a wide variety of different types of people that think differently to then you by yourself in a room and the decisions are yours, the time is yours, the deadlines are yours. And that's, that's switch.

Mm-hmm.

is significantly hard. I know it is hard for me because I love also like collaborating with people. love throwing out ideas and seeing what works and what doesn't. The thing that I've hated the most about unemployment is that I've liked every single one of my ideas and nobody has said no to anything, right? Because I'm like, Savan that's a great idea. I'm going go and...

you

and write that blog post and do those things. How do you build discipline in people to stay on course? But I think the second part of what you told me is finding that buddy to sort of keep you on track. how do you find the right buddy to keep you on track? Because I've got buddies throughout my life that have definitely not kept me on track. We've gone out too late, we've done too many things. ⁓ But how do you do that?

Yeah. Ha Yeah. You know, I think if you're lucky and you've had people that you've worked with before who you've already developed that trusting relationship with, ⁓ that's kind of the easiest path. ⁓ I think there's people that you end up kind of stumbling across. I'm a big believer, probably now more than ever, about that the universe put people ⁓ in front of you that mean something. so... Through just like a random connection, somebody said, hey, I think you'd really like this person. We get on a call, introduction, and we went from like that introduction to talking probably at least every two weeks and all these ideas come out. And now we have this different kind of establishment of ideas that, but with this entrepreneur, a entrepreneur idea or like lens. So now we can actually say to each other, you know what, that's going to be a heavy lift.

Mm-hmm.

Do you have time for that? Even though you're doing coaching and consulting to a degree, it's still a level of unemployment because you're having to hustle. You've got to hustle for that work. ⁓ Sometimes you stumble across people and you just have to trust, I think there's really cool. Look, even like you and I. So Mike introduced us. ⁓ I think he feels like there's commonality and shared experiences. And so now we're having this conversation.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

And who knows where these conversations could go later. And it's like, okay, like, let's have that. ⁓ And I think also being willing to ask for that honesty too. think that's a, there's a vulnerability of I need you to tell me if this idea sucks, right?

Yeah, mean, even asking for it is hard sometimes, because you're so, I know, like for a lot of the ideas I throw out, at least initially, I just feel like they're the best fucking things in the world, and nobody has told me otherwise, and so I just keep running with it, but asking for that is so hard for me, and I'm sure it's so hard for a lot of people. ⁓ How do you build that muscle to ask for? that trust and that honesty from other people, especially people that aren't your family. it gets a little uncomfortable at times.

know, I think I had the advantage of again working at a place that had such a strong feedback culture. It's like that feedback was going to happen whether you asked for it or not. So you might as well ask for it. ⁓ You have the chance to kind of to do that. I also think there's an importance of modeling and being willing to do that for others. Right. So one of the things I do in coaching is I'll say

Right. Yeah.

I have maybe a controversial question or I'm having a reaction to this. I have a question that I want to ask you. Can I ask you? It may be a hard question, right? And so people are like, okay, yeah, that can ask me the hard question. Doing that, whether it's with a client, but doing that also with friends. So I think ⁓ it's modeling it, offering that to other people too is really important.

Yeah, was going to ask you how could people model that? Because I would imagine Netflix had tools and policies and regulations built in so that you can give that feedback in a healthy way. That's sustained over the years. in organizations outside of Netflix or maybe in your family or your friend group, what are some things that people can do so that they are getting that feedback? and it is part of their everyday life.

I think what's most important is to invite the feedback. Right? Like we used to say that to leaders, like you asking for the feedback means that you're showing like, want to talk about what's not working. Please tell me. And the more you show up for that, show that you can handle it. Right. And you're not, there's not the defensiveness. There's not the, no, I have feedback for you. All of the like bad things that shut down feedback. ⁓ I think it's the ability to invite it.

Mm-hmm. Right. Right.

take it in, apply it, it, you know, or even if it feels like it's not applicable to have a grown up mature conversation about it. Think how little that actually happens in families for the most part. Certainly when you get. Yeah.

it's hard. It's hard. God, I know that's like if you were to ask my wife, you know, one of the things that she thinks is frustrating about living with me is there are times where I'm really, really good about taking in the feedback and there are times where it's not great. Yeah. But it is really fucking hard. like, I wonder if there are best practices and things that

La la la. Yeah.

organizations, world-class organizations that have done so that other people that have never worked there can apply that to their lives.

I think it's important from the get go in any relationship or organization to say feedback, like feedback, talking about what's not working matters. It's important. Yes, it's uncomfortable. Humans are wired for connections. So feedback conversation is really hard, but we have to talk about it. Right. Because otherwise problems, things don't get fixed. Right.

Mm-hmm.

And, and to you said like policy regulations, think like one of the harder parts of Netflix is the expectation was there. And sure, we had like this 360 tool, but it was really kind of on each person to build up the, the courage and tolerance to either go get feedback or to ask for feedback. was a, they used to say like feedback is a muscle, which was like kind of cliched at Netflix, but it is true.

Mm-hmm.

You do have to like, okay, I'm going to kind of like training for a marathon. I'm going to go like do my first walk, like my mile walk. And I'm going to ask for it. And I'm to start to prove to myself that I can do it. Or as a leader, I'm proving to my team, you can give me feedback. It is okay. So I think it's the expectation. And then as much as you can, are there some good, easy tactics that allow for people? um to give and receive feedback. Running or walking not running I think is really important too. Um so there was like a once a year 360 but I think any good team it's either feedbacks and one-to-ones or teams openly talking about like wins and losses right so you're again talking about

Right.

what's not working and then the credibility side too of talking about what is because if all I ever say to you are these things that you keep fucking up you're like forget it you don't see me you don't see me so I'm now not going to take in what you say ⁓ so I think it's yeah I hope that answer your question but

No, that was great. Tre, I want to talk a little bit about identity. You throughout our conversation, we've touched on it in a bunch of different ways, both from a personal and professional perspective. ⁓ One of the things that comes up very often in my conversations is this dilemma of people being stuck in an identity. They may be stuck ⁓ only as a at-home dad or as a mid-level manager or as a UX designer or you name it, right? And they feel like they can never get out of it. And it's sort of this perpetual sort of catch-22 where you get let go from a job and you go and try to find that exact same job or you try to do the same thing or you go to the same clubs or you talk to the same people and it's...

Yeah.

It's like this hamster wheel ⁓ of this identity that just traps you in some ways. If you were to tell people, because I feel like you have gone through many different iterations of this throughout your life from your time in the South to now, how would you give them the courage or what piece of advice would you give people? to have the courage to do the things necessary if they wanted to change who they are and where they are. And what would that look like?

I think the first thing is getting people in touch with who do they think they are.

Hmm, interesting.

Right? Do they, ⁓ you know, I'm sure you've heard the term like masking, right? So people have, let me go back. Like when you were talking about ⁓ at home, I'm this parent at work, I'm this person to my team with my peers, I'm this person, right? and I think it can be hard actually for people who are like, I have to show up in this way for.

Yeah, tell me more. Right.

And particularly, again, if you're from any community, like historically excluded community, you know what masking is, right? And it's actually like one of the reasons why I love being in music retail is there was a like that diversity of background, diversity of identity was what you needed and wanted. ⁓ But so who am I?

Mm-hmm.

if I'm not this person, if I'm not that person in this area, and what's important to me, right? So who would I want to be if I didn't have to worry about ⁓ people seeing me differently, like in a bad way? I think getting people to that self-aware point. ⁓ And going back to what I said before, like the walking before running, if it were... Let's see, maybe this maybe a good scenario is when people become parents and they are some parents and they're used to working in this place of where. The their their job is their life, right, because they think and again, at a really fast growing startup, you think that that's that that is how you're successful, because you're you're there, you're on. And so what does it mean to be a parent?

Mm-hmm.

Well, I need to kind of pull back a little bit. Well, I don't think I can. I actually think you can. Let's do like a small step and helping people. ⁓ maybe you don't answer Slack after seven o'clock at night. Well, I don't know if I can do that. I'm like, it. Give it anything. Give it a test and see was everything okay? Yeah. Remind me what your job is again. Well, I'm, you know, I do sales for Fentek. Okay. So it's not open heart surgery. No.

Hahaha Yep. Yep.

Okay, perspective. You don't answer your slack after seven o'clock, right? So what do they want to be? What do they care about? What would they shift about themselves if they could? And then what are some small steps we can do to get there to start showing you that it's actually safe to start to be more of that person than who you think you're supposed to be right now?

Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Especially the perspective part. What are some of the harder things when you're talking to people about this change in perspective as they're trying to better themselves? What are some of the harder things that come up ⁓ when people are really they're divulging sort of their identity? They're trying to, they're telling you sort of like, who they've been, where they wanna go. But for people that don't really have the ability to speak to who they are, like I'll give you an example. My first five or 10 therapy sessions were not that great because I just didn't have the language to be able to say, here's how I'm feeling, here's why I'm feeling it, here's... And it was like pulling teeth for me to even...

Mm-hmm.

get to that point to have the language to be able to speak to something so that I can start to get better. But from a coaching perspective, as you're talking to these people on how to get better, what are some things that you're helping them with so that they can build that language and that muscle to be able to speak to things in an effective way?

I'm trying to, I have, I've worked with some clients who. ⁓ They have been really successful for a period of time being very strong, decisive leaders. They know how to get stuff done. Their teams, they're very definitive. They drive hard because that's what the business wants from them and that's worked for them up to a point. And now they are at this place where they're realizing that...

Mm-hmm. Okay? Okay.

It's not, that's not working as much as a, say, like being an effective people leader. And so they want to get into, well, I feel like I don't inspire my team or, you know, whatever the symptoms are, where they realize that they're not fully connect connecting with their team. And I have to get them to talk about, okay, when you, where's that? ⁓ Let's say it's that we identify behavior as, as potentially negative, right? Like a, like a.

Mm-hmm.

firing off a slack when you're frustrated with something, right? Even though what you have to say probably has merit, certainly the way it's being delivered in the tone doesn't. And so you can have a client get stuck on, well, but they were wrong about that. And I'm like, we're not debating whether they were actually wrong or not. We're talking about if you really wanted them to understand your perspective. Do you think there's, do you think that worked for you to begin with? Well, no. Do you think maybe ⁓

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

there's a different way, like what could those different ways be? Why? Like getting, you have to get people comfortable with understanding that there are things they're doing that aren't great, right? That actually aren't helping themselves. And so when you have somebody who is afraid of being seen as a person who makes mistakes, ⁓ just worried about perception, I think getting people to kind of set that down, set that guard down, I think is really, really important.

Yeah, I love that. ⁓ Tre, I've got a couple one word questions for you. You can use one or two words. ⁓ But would love to get your perspective of this. So right now in one word, what do you think leaders need the most right now?

Mm. empathy.

Why is that? Yeah. Yeah.

I would have said that word to you 20 years ago, too. Like, you know, the ability to put yourself in somebody else's or recognize that you probably have been in that person's shoes at some point or another. So you as a leader, what you wish somebody would have done for you then. Right. Empathy.

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. think 20 years ago, we would have said the same thing. I wonder why we've lacked so much in that, knowing that that is something that, like, in interviews, we ask about, with some of these, some of the questions around trying to determine, I don't know, quote unquote, soft skills. And... knowing that it's such a critical piece to businesses that we're still lacking right now, why do you think that is the case? Like, I don't know if there's been less focus on empathy, but I also know that we definitely are where we should be. But what are your takes?

I mean, my sense is if maybe that's a fear of lack of objectivity, right? Like if I'm empathetic to your, what you're going through, I think it's one thing to say I can offer somebody grace and that's often what can come from empathy.

Mm-hmm.

⁓ but that doesn't mean that I'm like as a leader, say it's perception. That doesn't mean that I'm letting people get away with stuff, right? Or that I don't expect high performance, right? I think there's a very dictated generational way in which being a leader looks like. And so empathy is one of those.

Yeah.

soft skills that's seen as a weakness, right? Because it's a job, you show up for your job, I don't frankly need to be worried about how you're feeling, right? Like, you know, it sounds foreign when I'm sure to people who are like, post millennial. But it's like my mom was boomer generation. And so the idea that you stay at a company for 10 years was like, that's what you do. That's loyalty. And it's like, know, right? So I think there's like still an outgrowing of this dated notion that you have to be like a tough driving boss. so empathy feels like the opposite end of that spectrum, right?

Right? Right? one of the things I've been thinking about over the last couple of years is, being a product manager and leading product teams, there's a lot around metrics and there's a lot around analytics. You know, just trying to refine sort of like what's not working. And when it comes to things like empathy and compassion, it's much harder to try to quantify those things in a business.

Mm-hmm.

It's much harder to put numbers against those things. And I wonder if there's, there are innovative ways that you've seen that companies are doing this where, you know, they can, they can track the progression of the skills, these skill sets. ⁓ because like we were talking about like 20 years ago, it's probably the same damn thing. Like, we're still, we still need to work on it. So how do we work on it if we don't sort of know. where we were and where we need to go.

I don't know if it's so much as innovative or as more as a company is willing to ask these questions to their employees about what's your experience, right? Like what's the sentiment? What's happening? I work with this other consulting company and they work with different tools like different tools that are more like culture surveys. And now you're getting into the how you're feeling about the job. How are you feeling? What the leadership showing up, right? Like companies have to be willing to say, okay, we're going to ask the questions. And we're going to be willing to look at it. And so I don't know if that's so much innovative as actually companies developing a real discipline and commitment to asking, listening, and then acting, acting upon it, and then asking for feedback again. ⁓ Like, and is that working? ⁓ Yeah, it's that willingness to listen. a lot of engagement for a long time, Netflix didn't do engagement surveys. I think they felt like it could be really misleading. ⁓ Also because it was like often it was anonymous, so which was at odds with this like direct candid feedback culture. But you do have to like, I think create some anonymous space to allow people to say, here's this thing that really isn't working for me. And so I think it's not innovative, it's just a commitment that companies have to make.

Interesting. Yeah, I would imagine that the different types of feedback have different impact and different color based on how the feedback's coming in, when it's coming in. I mean, I'm sure there's a bunch of variation that you've looked at working in HR of how to take that feedback and how to apply it in productive ways. But in your opinion, when is feedback

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

too much feedback, or is there ever a case where there's too much feedback?

Yeah, I think so. think, you know, if your idea of feedback is to point out every time somebody could do something better, like we used to call them like feedback citations, right? So you're new employee on my team. And I think, you know, we're going into meetings together and we're coming out and I'm like going, okay, here's what you could have done better. Here's what you could have done better. Right. And if you're new, right, if you're new, you're like,

Yeah. Yeah.

It's like too much and it's not helpful, right? Just like if I'm being overly effusive and giving you a ton of positive feedback. Okay, great. Yeah, and so I think it's when do you give feedback when it's, when it probably serves the greatest purpose for them.

Yeah. Great. Just blowing smoke? Yeah.

both good and constructive and positive. Feedback for the sake of feedback, which is what used to happen a lot at Netflix. Like, I have to give feedback. And I'm like, don't give me fluff feedback or don't give me dated feedback because you couldn't come up with something recent. Like, tell me something real like right now that would help me be. ⁓

Yeah, waste of time.

do, like start stop continue. Tell me something new I need to do. Tell me something I need to stop doing. And what's something that you like doing that you want to see me keep going on. But make it real. Like make it real.

Second one-word question, but what's one word that scares you right now?

I mean, I'll tell you the first word that came to my Trump. that's the, you know, I don't mean to try to go political, but like as a person who has an identity that this administration directly opposes. ⁓ That's my political answer.

Yeah. Yeah.

⁓ The word, I guess the other word that comes up for me is like ⁓ disconnection.

⁓ interesting. Expand on that.

Right, like this. Well, one of the bigger challenges that I think we're facing with, again, the really hard job market, hard economic times, if there's politics affecting your ⁓ community.

Mm-hmm.

is in turning inward feels like a survival but then there is a disconnect that happens and so in the absence of that connection the thing we talked about like empathy. ⁓ I don't know, like isolation, maybe that's the word. People become more more isolated. ⁓ know, the umpteen studies that shown like the effect of the pandemic and the isolation, doing your own business can be very isolating, right? ⁓ So maybe it's not dysketic, maybe it's isolation. Like isolation is a really...

Mm-hmm. yeah. Yep. Yeah, I've definitely felt that for sure. ⁓ Last question, Tre, and ⁓ take as much time as you need to answer this, Let's just say in 15 years, and this podcast is still around, but in 15 years, your daughter stumbles upon our conversation. What is the one thing that you hope she gets out of our conversation today?

that I am a caring and authentic person.

I love that. I love that. and that you got a million likes on this video. ⁓

That might matter to her. don't know. I think independent of all of that, that she sees me as, you know, someone who cares. It would help if she thinks I'm funny too, but you know, I don't know if I had given enough jokes on this.

struggling in that department too so don't feel too bad. Alright my friend, Tre, thank you so much for joining me on the show. I appreciate you and I wish you well and we'll link your company's URL in the descriptions and if people need to get a hold of you we'll put in your business email there as well. But I wish you well my friend and happy new year.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Same to you. I appreciate this. Thanks for the opportunity.

All right, we'll talk soon. See you later. All right, bye-bye.

All right, take care. Bye.